EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Some Americans would be absolutely fucked if they didn't live in a 'United States'.

That The US is talking as it is: I'm OUT

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/boris-johnson-likens-eu-to-nazi-superstate

This is simply unbelievable. I don't know if he is really that ignorant or deliberately trying to mislead people, but let it be said, again, for the record, that the European idea was born precisely to prevent anything like the horror of the Nazi campaign to destroy it and its people from ever happening again. Plus, Europe, of course, is not attempting to create a 'superstate'. It is simply built on the idea that European states are stronger together than apart. There are uneasy tensions, as for instance between the desire by largely conservative politicians to create larger markets (to allow fewer, larger companies to dominate) and internationalist tendencies on the left, as recently articulated again by Jeremy Corbyn. None of that has anything to do with the Nazis, who first ruined Germany's economy and then partly out of desperation that their utter political failure (of 'autarkism', among other things, rather contrary to the European idea) would become too conspicuous, started the worst war ever known.

I just don't understand what he thinks he's playing at--so shortly after Livingstone's comments, too?

I don't know if he is really that ignorant or deliberately trying to mislead people

The latter. He's not ignorant, but calculating.

The Brexit camp is in disarray, riven by personal emnity, and with arguments that don't stand up to serious scrutiny. They need to distract from this, so in classic, 'throw a dead cat on the table' style, Johnson comes out with this.

"Ow nooz an European superstate!!!"

Yes God forbid everyone gets a decent pension, benefits, is truly protected from human rights abuses etc etc.

Though while I support the EU the monsters of the likes of TTIP etc. are always a threat.

I thought this laid out the current status of the Out campaign rather well;

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/15/nigel-farage-remain-leave-eu-referendum-tories

Yes God forbid everyone gets a decent pension, benefits,

Right but who gets that and for how long. Anecdotally, our old postman in France retired at 55 with a full pension - that is clearly ridiculous. It seems even more so when France has a serious problem with youth unemployment. Money has to come from somewhere.

The idea that the continent is some sort of utopia and we're living in a hell hole doesn't reflect reality.

Totally agree that the practical issues are immense and there's always been sniping in Europe anyway about difference in allocation/tax evasion in some countries etc.

It's ultimately up to the implementation of this "superstate".

See also the UK where in Northern Ireland abortion is as good as inaccessible while Westminster condems similar situations in other parts of the world and people dying of wrong atos assignments, getting benefits witheld while billions of tax remain legally unclaimed as laws are not amended.

Even in the UK you see a split forming between Scotland and Westminster about where money comes from and how it is allocated to citizens.

I liked that.

The only thing I wonder is whether people underestimate the popularity of Farage. That article seems to be taking the same elitist view that the majority of people watching a Cameron / Farage débate will write Farage off as a nutter.

It's like when Nick Griffin was on AQ all the liberals patted themselves on the back for "showing him up", when actually they just reinforced how aloof they were from huge sections of the population.

The same thing happens to Farage whenever he's on a similar show and the panel made from the same Oxbridge institutional clique gang up on him (Dimbleby included). They all seem blind to how it appears to other people.

It's ultimately up to the implementation of this "superstate".

For me the biggest concern is whether Europe has the ability to tackle the current crisise, and maintain itself as a dominant force going forward.

While I care about sovereignty, our political system is already so undemocratic it invalidates any concern about EU supremacy. Economically, I think we'll be fine either way long term, and I'm dubious how much difference there would be.

I am hoping we stay and that gives a clear vote of confidence to other countries suffering the same isolationist wobbles.

I'm not sure economically ... the price of fossil fuels is bound to go up again and the UK is sorta on the edge location wise.

It all depends on BREXIT team's plans but I've little confidence in the lot. Or in the current lot, but at least you sorta know where you stand.

A little miffed also that there's no clear vision on what's to happen to EU immigrants (dirty job stealers like me) or expats (like this lovely English bloke in the Dutch town where my parents live)

Such an opportunity to define a new UK but...same old, same old?

Interesting fact checking of the debate on the today programme yesterday morning. Both sides are as bad as each other for selectively quoting statistics or just inventing arguments out of thin air. There are whole areas of the debate where the argument of neither side holds much water.

Immigration isn't something I believe will matter either way.

On exit all future trade deals with the EU will be contingent on the same/similar free movement of people. Maybe there will be some slight restrictions allowing us to nab a greater number of skilled workers from developing countries.

If we stay I think we'll have some minor fluffing and negotiation on the number/rate of people from new member counties.

Net net, I am dubious about anyone's claim it will change either way.

In fact imo the vast majority of the brexit "advantages" put forward, willdifference either way.

The latter. He's not ignorant, but calculating.

The Brexit camp is in disarray, riven by personal emnity, and with arguments that don't stand up to serious scrutiny. They need to distract from this, so in classic, 'throw a dead cat on the table' style, Johnson comes out with this.

I wondered about that, but in the end I decided that I didn't think it really qualified as a 'dead cat', which, if I understand this correctly, at least has to have a small element of truth to it. The Nazi comparison doesn't, at all, and it will be defeated even more quickly than the nonsensical claims about the economy. Maybe it is meant to be a diversionary strategy, but by the continuing flurry of articles about the economy claims, it doesn't seem to have been very successful just yet.

Another opinion on it:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/boris-johnson-eu-hitler-bad-taste-bad-judgment

It's like when Nick Griffin was on AQ all the liberals patted themselves on the back for "showing him up", when actually they just reinforced how aloof they were from huge sections of the population.

The same thing happens to Farage whenever he's on a similar show and the panel made from the same Oxbridge institutional clique gang up on him (Dimbleby included). They all seem blind to how it appears to other people.

I think this is true (although, lest we forget, posho Farage didn't exactly go to very different schools than those ganging up on him there).

There's a similar opinion here in John Harris' piece on Trump supporters:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2016/may/12/why-people-vote-donald-trump-indiana-death-american-dream-video

posho Farage didn't exactly go to very different schools than those ganging up on him there

Maybe. But he is definitely not part of their world.

That video has pretty much convinced me Trump will be the next President ;(

He went to Dulwich College, then worked in the City. He's about as anti-establishment as Boris.

Quite how UKIP voters don't see through that charade is beyond me.

They're mainly thick cunts?

That video has pretty much convinced me Trump will be the next President ;(

Yep, although I've met many Americans lately who work at the US Embassy in London. They all say say that when it comes down to it, Mrs Clinton is the lesser of two evils. They think she'll just scrape in, but with such a small majority that she'll basically be a lame duck president from day one.

We have to wait and see. They are screwing over USA immigrants badly with a 36K wage after 2 years, or being part of a group with high skill shortages in the UK OR ELSE.

The ticket for Brexit does seem ran a lot of xenophobia and "themmuns are stealing jobs/lowering wages" and "Britain rules the waves".
No surprise of course with who started it all.

At the same time, some people do feel the pressure like construction workers/painters, so to just ignore that and not at least offer retraining for free or something is a bit crass.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36299324

"EU Referendum: EU exit would hit poor hardest, says David Cameron"

Oh so NOW you care about other socioeconomic groups your gov has been busy shafting? ;)

What. A. Cunt.

A galvanized one obv....the bodypart is useful :P

Probably somewhat a silly question, if I was sent my polling card for the London mayor election means I am still on the electoral register, does it mean I will be able to vote next month for the referendum without checking if I will still be on the register?

http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/register-to-vote