EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Hm immigration for poor paid jobs often comes up. Who is responsible though for nurturing the economy/education? Mostly the UK government.

It seems they're doing a poor job and try to deflect this on the EU.
The North of England/other areas are still poorer decades after the mines closed (see also parts of Belgium btw, alas) yet the answer is: Oh, we will just close our labour market.

And then still cut the benefits, raise education costs, no build social houses. Roit.
"look we left the EU" "great I still have no job"... is what I fear will happen.

Is the UK sure the USA will be its friend? I'm not so sure.
What about the UK expats?
And human rights? Amnesty already wrote a report on that new proposals ain't great.
Living in Norn Ire, Westminster already seems to give 0 fucks w/o the EHRC we have even less protection.

There are issues with the EU, but as there is no alternative I doubt just leaving will improve things. Well you have your control back...but what are you gonna do with it? ;)

I'm undecided. We do have an extremely complex import/export network which is top of my list of concerns about leaving but we import more than we export which makes trade agreements more likely, most of our biggest consumers sell more or the same to us. In the long run a weak currency would improve export and should encourage expansion of our own manufacturing base.

On security I don't see an issue, we protect our own market place with our own army and stay out of policing the world we could get by.

My partner is French, so I should be worried about sending all the forens home. I've put up with years of depressed wages from the influx of eastern european labour though, so I can understand why people are seeking limits to this.

I'm not to keen on radical change, which I think leaving the EU would be. I do believe we could have a better manufacturing base and more employment if we payed more attention to the trade deficit, which leaving would force us to do.

Been living in France now for going on 15 years, my vote is IN for obvious reasons. The EU might not be perfect but I fail to see how leaving would improve the situation for anyone involved.

Most definitely IN.

Collaboration across academia (I'm particularly thinking about biomedical research and clinical trials, which is what I'm familiar with) is incredibly important, and I do think that it will be a bad move for UK science to leave Europe, particularly as there are incredibly high skills and earnings barriers, many of which would preclude early career researchers from taking up posts here. Both my PhD and post-doc labs were largely filled with non-UK citizens. It could be argued that the UK should pay post-docs more, and try to encourage more people to go into science, but I don't necessarily see either of those things changing soon.

Besides pure man-power, would UK researchers be able to access EU grants, would it still be easy to collaborate with EU research groups? Without that funding, would we risk not making the latest research and technologies available to UK patients? The European Medicines Agency is based in Canary Wharf, I assume it would have to leave and take those jobs with it.

The massively ironic thing is, as a commonwealth immigrant, I can vote in this referendum, but my EU colleagues cannot.

IDS' argument that remaining in the EU leaves us open to 'Paris-style' attack is the most disingenuous bullshit I have heard coming out of that man, topping a long list of disingenuous bullshit from surely the UK's most disingenuous bullshiter. We've already HAD a 'Paris-style' attack, and the perpetrators were ALL BRITISH.

I'm IN, despite serious misgivings about the recent treatment of Greece and other faltering economies. I'm all for super-states, but it's important to recognise that the EU is geared towards ensuring economic growth for major players. Let's not kid ourselves that the EU enshrining free movement of people is about Human Rights, it's about ensuring cheap labour is mobile. Reform from within is my ticket.

I also love watching the right have a frothing fit about immigration, so that's a bonus.

that is a faaaantastic quote. may just post it on facebook so people think i found it x

I'm not going to pretend I know enough about this, but someone pointed me towards the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969 which apparently means expats can't be sent back to Britain because we have left the EU. Equally, we can't kick anyone out just because we have left the EU.
Though its worth noting France never signed this, so maybe they can do what they want.

Regardless, I'm voting to stay in.

In.

My argument is basically along the lines of "it's stopped us killing each other since 1945".

Why? Well it's brought us more closely together economically, culturally and physically (easier travel/immigration) so we're less likely to pursue daft policy that leads to war.

The EU hasn't "stopped a war" as someone stupidly claimed on the news earlier, rather it's avoided the long and complex series of steps that lead to war in the first place.

Also I studied in France and Germany as a student and that was good IN.

I reckon Boris knows the OUT team will lose, but he's taken the job as de facto leader so he's seen as a powerful dude who can stand up to Cameron for when the inevitable happens. Of course, I hope it ruins his career, the cunt.

In. Though being on the same side of a discussion as Cameron does make me doubt myself somewhat.

That was a very interesting perspective. Although the phrase "a bad move for UK science to leave Europe" is a bit misleading, as the referendum is about membership of the European Union. We are not voting to somehow leave Europe.

I'm waiting for more information before I can decide. I'm yet to hear anyone speak coherently on what will happen to British farming if we leave. Liz Truss has said there is no Plan B following an exit, which is rather concerning from the Defra secretary (although I would expect nothing less from her). It is absolutely impossible to make a reasoned decision in this area when there is such a dearth of information. No one has any idea what agricultural, trade, budgetary and regulatory policies would be put in place if we voted Out, so how can we decide either way? The current EU agricultural policy is utterly hopeless, but if no viable alternatives are being proposed then I'm not sure how to form a view.

You could be on the same side as Boris, Galloway and Farage if that makes you feel any better?

its not about personalities though its about our sovereignty, democratic rule of a country where 75% of the laws are made outside by people who are unelected . The tories may well try to bring back execution but we can vote against it .....

75% of the laws are made outside by people who are unelected

Citation needed

Sovereignty? Actual lol.

Next you'll be saying that pounds and ounces are perfectly understandable when compared with the rest of the modern world...

quite happy with the metric system though i like 12" singles

Granted, but they're so heavy!

Just use a laptop and Traktor.

Out
Follow boris

make Britain great

I feel my blood pressure rising everytime someone conflates the "great" in Great Britain with "really good". I think I might have a heart attack before the referendum date.

No one has any idea what agricultural, trade, budgetary and regulatory policies would be put in place if we voted Out, so how can we decide either way?

For me this is a salient issue and is also part of what frustrated me about the Scottish referendum. No one knows what the world after an 'out' vote will look like, and it could of course be possible for an 'independent' Britain, unencumbered from a bureaucratic and inefficient EU to lead the world with progressive and world leading legislation on all sorts of issues from human rights to trade to the environment. However, unfortunately my current reading is that i do not trust that this will be the case... quite the reverse in fact. For this reason IN.

I suppose they can't though it's legal to cut benefits...

I think I might vote out.

I'd like to say it's because I agree with Tony Benn, but for me it's the same as someone said earlier - it would be proper interesting to see what happens. Change is often good, mostly a fun adventure and rarely a total mistake that can't be undone later. Why not just give it a go?

It's bullshit. A classic example of the 75% of statistics are made up on the spot rule.

It's such a poor argument anyway; who formulates laws in Westminster? I'll give @gios78 a clue, they are unelected.

^^ Because a load of Tory cunts, not old Labour wise men, will decide how the adventure pans out.

fair point !

those laws that are made by our unelected lords are then overruled by unelected EU overlords ....

those laws that are made by our unelected lords are then overruled by unelected EU overlords ....

Bro, do you even constitutional convention?