In the news

Yay, someone actually engaging with the French humour.

I think what you say is pretty fair, and I think it's why not everyone in France is necessarily a fan of Charlie Hebdo - some find it too provocative, too childish, too close to the bone. Maybe it is. Maybe they misjudged some of their cartoons. But in the same way that some English-language comedy will satirise a thing by pretending to be the thing, I think it's important to remember that Charlie Hebdo was often trying to skewer racism by taking the stupidities uttered by racist politicians to their point of illogicality, as a form of reductio ad absurdum. It's a strategy in which missteps are perhaps inevitable - look at Ricky Gervais and his 'mong' character.

I made the comparison recently - Cabu for the French was kinda like Tony Hart, if Tony Hart had a sideline in drawing controversial political cartoons for Viz. Like Chris Morris crossed with Tony Hart, drawing for Viz. Not some crackpot churning out racist propaganda by any means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Kvu6Kgp88

So, because the terrorists want to kill people for drawing pictures, the best thing to do when they kill people is to stop drawing pictures - because that'll show them who's boss?

Yeah, completely with you now.

Jesus, you really are a hell of a spot on, your picture is a wide-angle zoomed in and out with a depth of field of 64 of aperture.

@winnifred1849 et al.

If you're actually realistic about what options there were for the latest front cover, they basically were in a bind - some would interpret not drawing a cartoon referencing the event as a form of surrender, for sure. Responding with a black mourning cover would have been too defeatist. Responding with a cartoon mocking Islam would have been too confrontational.

So, given those (crudely described) constraints, they came up with a cartoon that was defiant and magnanimous and very much in their style of doing things.

Yeah, maybe it wasn't perfectly judged - but I'd genuinely be curious to see what any of you would have been able to draw at short notice, within those parameters, while mourning the deaths of your colleagues.

Look, if it was for me I would have gone with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyIOl-s7JTU

Being nice is a sign of weakness...

they basically were in a bind - not drawing a cartoon referencing the event as a form of surrender, for sure. Responding with a black mourning cover would have been too defeatist. Responding with a cartoon mocking Islam would have been too confrontational.

So, given those (crudely described) constraints, they came up with a cartoon that was defiant and magnanimous and very much in their style of doing things.

Yeah, maybe it wasn't perfectly judged - but I'd genuinely be curious to see what any of you would have been able to draw

I think you sum it up pretty well here.There was no "right" cartoon to publish: whatever they publish, no-one wins. People are dead, other people (Jews, Muslims) are scared for their lives. A cartoon isn't going to improve this situation, but a misjudged cartoon coud certainly make it worse. I think I would have tried to highlight the fact that two of those killed were Muslims.

stop drawing pictures - because that'll show them who's boss?

I would have tried to draw a cartoon that wasn't trying to prove who was boss. Sadly Hebdo's fight for free speech has been appropriated by the far right, people like Le Pen, and the neo fascits marching in Germany. Much like Islam has been co-opted by the terrorists.

I would have tried to draw a cartoon that wasn't trying to prove who was boss

Surely that's exactly what's required. Otherwise terrorists can run away with the impression that they can bring their will to bear by violent means. France isn't a Muslim state, it's a secular one, and that needs affirming.
You could argue that these cartoons are unnecessarily belligerent, but the French constitution allows for them none the less. You're not really going to get anywhere trying to appease people who won't rest until everybody converts to Islam.

Not that I'd encourage atheism being shoved down people's throats either - I'm with you on that.

Surely that's exactly what's required. Otherwise terrorists can run away with the impression that they can bring their will to bear by violent means. France isn't a Muslim state, it's a secular one, and that needs affirming.

^ this

Further cartoons in this vein will drive more Muslims towards the radical views of the terrorists, and cause further division. Muslims are not going to think "Oh look they've depicted the prophet again, I guess my beliefs must be stupid".

But anyway, I think this discussion is going to go round in circles, so I'm going to accept your views and leave it at that. I just hope I'm wrong, and the Hebdo saga is not prolonged or worsened as a result of this.

Very good answer at the start of this program.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04yfff3/question-time-15012015

It's also only some Muslims who don't like seeing doodles of their prophet, it's less of a thing for others. Probably like standing in Northern Ireland with rosary beads hanging out of your arse, you'll likely offend a bunch of people, but not all of them will be as offended as the catholics.

Or something.

Probably like standing in Northern Ireland with rosary beads hanging out of your arse,

a good anal-ogy.

But in the same way that some English-language comedy will satirise a thing by pretending to be the thing, I think it's important to remember that Charlie Hebdo was often trying to skewer racism by taking the stupidities uttered by racist politicians to their point of illogicality, as a form of reductio ad absurdum. It's a strategy in which missteps are perhaps inevitable - look at Ricky Gervais and his 'mong' character.

See also Al Murray's Pub Landlord and the weird dissonance of a few people laughing with the character in an auditorium full of people laughing at the character.

has this been resolved yet?

gesundheit

If people use cartoons as an excuse to be driven towards more radical views I think they
have been radicals all along.

Every day Prevent work hard to talk to young people showing radical tencencies. There are thousands of young people currently involved in the program. If we assume all radicals were radical all along we give up on them all. I don't like May, but I think this needs to be done.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-wins-power-to-intervene-in-schools-and-colleges-to-prevent-radicalisation-9879753.html

:o

i'd rather see a government backed plan to root out reactionary, right wing, freedom hating extremists in the tory party.

I thougt UKIP serves that function.

Only 2 or 3 have defected. Job won't be complete until the other 50+ have.

today is the 750th anniversary of the first MP's expense fiddle and probably the first lie told in parliament too

We still have a blasphemy law on our books, so newspapers tend to be very tame. Luckily the judiciary is secular. In NI as long as there's a sense of humor you can even criticize the "alphabet organisations/freedom fighters/criminal scumbags" <- as applicable.

But due to that blasphemy law I don't think the sex shops at Gresham street dare sell rosary bead anal beads...they do have sexy nun uniforms of course.

I am Dutch, I am supposed to know what's in the local sex shops.