If you support segregated cycling infrastructure in Hackney

@bothwell "Oh but the traders, won't somebody think about the traders, if there weren't parking spaces alongside every single stretch of road then every business everywhere and the whole of civilisation would ACTUALLY AND IMMEDIATELY COLLAPSE"
this is the fucking word^^^^^
youve just summed up the key moment in history

You can also see how many people have to walk onto the cycle lane on the right due to overcrowding.

You can also see how many people have to walk onto the cycle lane on the right due to overcrowding.

I know, right! God, so much rage. Imagine if that bus lane had a tiny little cycle lane jammed into the nearside as well so they could walk in that when there's no space on the footways, forcing cyclists out in front of buses. OH WAIT, THERE FUCKING IS.

so much rage

@gridds just posted this in the gifs thread and looking at all the peds crammed onto the footways on both sides of the bridge while so much space is given over to motor traffic has made me RAGE.

That gif about sums up the perverse inverse hierarchy where the strong and dangerous minority hold sway over everyone else. (Bit like in economics too) .

What will it be like for peds if there is a seperate cycle provision they have to contend with as well?

If we wish for a civilised urban realm we start with prioritising walkers, then cyclists and public transit, then drivers...

Where you gonna take that rage @bothwell?

Where you gonna take that rage @bothwell?

To anyone and everyone who will listen! I am filled with righteous street-fixing rage!

(tbf all my rage levels have done so far is make me even angrier, but at least I've written lots of letters of complaint to various officials about it. Keeps them or their secretaries busy for five minutes at a time while they write back to me thanking me for my valuable input, I suppose)

Once again, no-one is asking for bad segregation, repeatedly pointing out that bad segregation exists does not advance your argument.

I know. Try reading my post again.

To anyone and everyone who will listen! I am filled with righteous street-fixing rage!

Sounds like a plan. I'm in ...

Perhaps the time has come... (again) http://rts.gn.apc.org/

Oh but the traders, won't somebody think about the traders, if there weren't parking spaces alongside every single stretch of road then every business everywhere and the whole of civilisation would ACTUALLY AND IMMEDIATELY COLLAPSE

If there wasn't parking outside our theatre we'd park there anyway, for however long we needed, and the parking fines would eventually add to the rising price of tickets. Luckily we're a big, well funded theatre. A smaller place might struggle. The last ticket I got while loading was around 15% of what I made from the job.

Good point, soz. I'd forgotten that Green Lanes is an established hotspot of theatre activity along its entire length.

alight, just did. My point still stands. NO-ONE is asking for bad infrastructure. NO-ONE (here at least) is responsible for designing it. Please stop going on about it.

I shall take it you don't have a point.

^^I'd forgotten we were talking exclusively about green lanes. As theatres are the only businesses that ever need to unload for long periods of time my point is entirely specious.

Is that @cake selling tshirts in the first picture on that page?!

Unloading over segregated tracks is rarely a problem. And if you actually look at some of the plans being proposed a lot of loading bays are being retained. And at adequate levels of provision the odd car or van parked in a cycle track is no hassle anyway because the rest of the journey is so pleasant.

lol. Try again.

My point is that all these various problems people are describing about segregation are helpful to those hoping to introduce segregation, as it highlights possible issues which can then be avoided. Sorry if if that wasn't clear before.

And if you actually look at some of the plans being proposed a lot of loading bays are being retained.

Great! This is exactly what I was talking about: someone who is anti-segregation highlights a problem, someone on the other side thinks of a solution.

@cake can fess to or not to being part of that rabble

What? The sarcasm meter was twitching far too much for that, they have been presented very much as reasons to resist segregation in the future, not as helpful reminders of the pitfalls.

So you are generally in favour then?

What are you talking about? The plans have been in the public domain for months. Maybe you should go and look some of it up...

I'm saying that however antagonistic or even rude the anti segregationists are being, this thread is a great source of research on what can go wrong, and therefore how it can be done better. I am against segregation because in my experience it is shit, but I don't have much else to go on. If a scheme can be shown to avoid the problems I foresee, I'd be in favour of it. As discussed above, @cyclelove was bound to meet opposition posting here, but it's resulted in a useful dialogue. I, and others, would not have heard about it, given it so much thought had it not been posted here.

But the places like Green Lanes, Soho, Fitzrovia, etc aren't full of vans loading/unloading, they're full of parked cars.

If segregated lanes were going to replace rows of parked cars I'd definitely be in favour. Fine / tax the fuck out of private cars, for all I care.

Time to think big ?
Others are
http://inhabitat.com/hamburg-announces-plans-to-become-a-car-free-city-within-20-years/

Unloading over segregated tracks is rarely a problem

Based on what evidence? If it's your own experience I'd add that my own is quite the opposite as far as, say, the Smurfways in London go.

Loading bays are all well and good but still replicate the essential problem of conflict points where segregated traffic crosses, one way or the other. I have yet to see any segregated solution that adequately addresses the problem of those busy, arterial suburban high streets - places like Kingsland Rd or the Walworth Road - that are a particular feature of London from zone 2 outwards. This is part of the reason why more elegant solutions like simply directing through traffic past the area (through bike traffic, if they will not take the unlikely step of closing such roads to through car traffic) should be part of the public realm repertoire.

One of the interesting points in relation to this kind of initiative is what @Oliver_Schick was posting on the 'mini-Holland' thread about the differing conditions that have fed into some other (mostly northern European) countries that have managed to exclude cars from their towns - that it's a function of other factors extending far beyond the town itself, the wider road network, the degree of suburbanisation, the pattern of employment. Whether such plans fail or work might depend on precisely these factors.

Personally I feel that given increasing pollution and scarcity of traditional forms of fuel the road and transport system will evolve anyway in the next few decades, much as they have been evolving for the past century and more.

Edit: Just to add the point that this is why, I think, I like the Hackney 'filtered permeability' approach. It tips the balance back in favour of the pedestrian and cyclist in an almost insidious way, gradually reclaiming a shared urban environment piece by piece. By contrast the segregated approach seems like a distinctly - how do I put this - turn of the millennium solution: make a dedicated, risk assessed space for everything and for every activity, all controlled by Local Planning Guidance Notes or whatever. This kind of big-society public sector planning is, I think, unlikely to be seen again in the near future, given the catastrophic erosion of public funding in the past three years and still ongoing as well as the steady, parallel erosion of development control laws.