League VII seeding results

Shane its been sent to your @nktshane name...

Shane is on top of it!

First of all, thanks for organising the league guys. I don't pretend to start an argument about this, but I have to comment it.

It did not say anything here

http://www.lfgss.com/conversations/256706/#comment11888451

@punkture... I think it is fare to assume that people could make the mistake... I did not remember that from last year... I think is fair to do it that way, but just did not remember.
I don't mind that much in which division to be, but I think @Vit has a point ...

Moreover, if it was only one vote in the end it might not even matter ... Plus the game to untie the results seems that it is not going to happen. Correct me if I'm wrong please. As I liked that idea a lot and I would like to attend to the game if I'm able to.

Perhaps just by resubmitting Vit's vote by moving his team to the bottom will untie the results...

What do you think?

Victor, the game to untie the results is now provisionally scheduled for Friday 7th November. Spectators and refs welcome. We will release the first fixtures after that game

Why don't we do a mini tournament between the three of us where every team plays agains each other team twice in 10 or 15 minutes games depending on the time, on the 7th of November?

which three teams? the playoff is between La Haute Bourgoisie and Much Jokes...

I am not big fan of arguments either just wanted to make clear that I only followed the specifications as stated in the forum and the survey monkey at the start of the vote.

Of course voting your own team last is fairer, but how could I know that this was your intention when the specifications stated otherwise.

If you wouldn't disqualify my vote and easily amend ranking of my team to13th position the results would be

1. WestWay (133)
   
2. Much Jokes (136)
   
3. La Haute Ben and Chukker (137)
   (Based on previous posts about including the vote)
   
   

I am just surprised you wouldn't want to do that since I believe you have the best intentions for fair league.

I'm happy to do the league table this year, but if someone else wants to take it on, please do.

Thanks for people who've volunteered to help with the League Tables this year, but I'll handle it. It's really a one-person job and I've got the system all worked out from last year.

Here are the teams with players:

1. Monorail (Adam/Rupert/Emmett)
   
2. Party Time (Luca/Tony/chris)
   
3. TBC (Cam/Josh/Mat)
   
4. Three's a crowd (Big Ed/Nik/Ryan)
   
5. TBC (Ed/Joe Spikes/Woody)
   
6. La Haute Bourgeoisie (Punkture/Chukker/Robbie)
   
7. Much Jokes (Miles/Shane/Danielle)
   
8. Westway (Vic/Phil/Vit)
   
9. Clerks (Felix/Jimmy/Mark)
   
10. TBC (Louis/Ben R/Jackie)
    
11. TBC (Elliot/Dan/Charlie)
    
12. I.P.A Superbrew (io/paul/ana)
    
13. TBC (Mani/Sam/Aleks)
    
    

Let me know if I missed any other questions that people have raised here.

@Vit @victorRodri

After discussing it with Matt and Ben, I have decided that the original league seeding will stand.

Please bear in mind that I make this decision completely impartially as I am not playing the league.

My reasons are threefold:

1. The voting instructions were clearly specified in the question: "Please rank your own team as 15 and then rank the remaining 14 teams from best to least good. All 15 teams must be ranked."
   Despite the numbering being wrong, 22 of 23 did it correctly.
   It is standard democratic procedure to discount votes that are not filled in correctly. (Please note @Vit that you were informed with ample time and did not correct your vote)

2. If this vote were to be included we would then have to include other people's votes that were late for one reason or another (including the 16 voters who did not vote).

3. The decision was made to discount this vote before the votes were tallied. So it was completely fair, no rigging as you are suggesting. We have an incredibly long and boring email trail as proof of that.

So, please let's just get on with it.

ok guys, thanks for discussing about this and take it into consideration.

That's how the rules were set and it won't make any more difference than removing the need of the untie game, which everyone is happy with and no need to stop it from happening.

For next year (if I remember...) I would suggest that everyone vote without including their team.

So in the example each person would rank 14 teams excluding their team from the ranking.

As I said before by doing it this way you don't prejudice your team (by adding 15x3 points), as happens now if the three members of the team vote and there are other teams where not all the members vote.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you can share your thoughts it will great.

Looking forward to start the league!

For the record, I dissented from this decision, because I agreed that the three teams were really in a tie. On the other hand, the system is imperfect, because 45% of people didn't vote and it's all guesses anyway. And, despite my siding with a 3-way tie, the rule to discount incorrect votes is sound.

For next year, I think the following set of rules covers all possible eventualities.

1. Late votes will not be counted.
   
2. Incorrect votes will not be counted.
   
3. Votes where any team is ranked more than 3 places away from its modal vote will be discounted.
   

4. The split will always be for even Divisions unless there are an odd number of teams, in which case the odd team (e.g. #7 out of 13) goes into Division B.

5. There will be preseason playoffs for the mid-table teams, according to the following rules.

6. If there is an even number of teams, playoffs include:
   -The lowest of the top set (e.g. #6 out of 12)
   -The highest of the bottom set (e.g. #7 out of 12)
   -Any teams which are within one ranking away from the lowest of the top (e.g. if 12 teams, then -6 or closer to the 6th place team) or the highest of the bottom (+ 7 or closer from the 7th place team).

7. If there is an odd number of teams, playoffs include:
   -The lowest of the top set (e.g. #6 out of 13)
   -The highest of the bottom set (e.g. #8 out of 13)
   -The middle team (#7 out of 13)
   -Any teams which are within one ranking away from the lowest of the top (e.g. if 13 teams, then -6 or closer to the 6th place team) or the highest of the bottom (+8 or closer from the 8th place team).

All of the own-team rankings (i.e. 13s) are excluded from the tally. I don't know of a way to set up an online poll where you can rank all other teams but not your own. This could happen by people sending me a ranking, but that gets quite unwieldy in terms of data management. Doing it with a single online ranking poll makes it easy. Since all the team own-votes are discounted, then it should be fine. No?

that sounds great

I've just updated the set of rules. I think this is better. Comments and suggestions welcome.

Yes I think so, if all the team own-votes are discounted I think it should be fine

The #preseasonplayoff between Much Jokes and La Haute Bourgeoisie is tentatively scheduled for Fri 7 Nov, Mitch, 7pm. Refs, spectators, hecklers encouraged!

This means regular season is set to begin on 8 Nov. I'll release the first two fixtures of each division on 8 Nov, with a deadline of 5 Dec.

I guess the post must have been updated early on by one of you guys adding the sentence 'you should rank your team last'. Myself and Victor voted first thing....

I think most people voted later and got it right reading the updated post. Never mind, as you said I will get on with it and carry on.

Also, one thing, how did you try to contact me? I didn't receive any message! I will check my spam to make sure I am not missing anything.

I appreciate you have amended rules and want to improve the seeding for mid-teams. I think the pre play off should be considered and made wider including 4 teams for next league.

Thanks guys for looking into this hearing of our appeals and suggestions and let's enjoy the league!

victor was the 9th person to vote, Vit you voted after him. The post wasnt updated as noone changed it since it was put up other than to say that votes should not try to game the system. I private messaged you on LFGSS as I know that the forum emails people to tell them if they have a PM.

The rules were not amended and the seeding was done as it was done last year.

As Max says, lets just crack on and enjoy the league

The page with original post is still open on my phone. I will show it to you next time I see you. You can't see the content anymore as it says: the post might have been deleted.

I'm not in this year's league, but the way the split was handled last year affected my team and at the time I wish we could have had a play off between three closely ranked teams. The voting system only gives people's opinion of your team's ability, and we never got the chance to test how accurate it had been, because we only played lower placed teams, not higher. A three way playoff could have made us feel like we were in the right place from the beginning and allowed us to enjoy playing the league, rather than playing the entire thing suspecting that maybe we could have done better.

None of this was listened to last year because some people wanted to get on and play immediately. It looks like that's about to happen again.

/my2p

The level of discussion is intense, already!

This year looks well competitive.

This could happen by people sending me a ranking, but that gets quite unwieldy in terms of data management. Doing it with a single online ranking poll makes it easy. Since all the team own-votes are discounted, then it should be fine. No?

Not 100% sure about this - but shouldnt you be dividing the number of 'points' a team accumulates by the COUNT of the number of votes they receive?

Because: some teams will receive more COUNTs of votes than others, because the voting was individual-based, but the ranking is team-based.
Some teams will have two, or even three, members voting.

e.g.
Only 1 member of Team H votes in the ballot, and 3 people from Team G vote in the ballot.
At the end of the voting, they end up with the same number of 'points'.
And let's say the total number of voters is 22.

Team G gets 134 points, from 19 votes (because 3 people couldnt vote for themselves)
Team H gets 140 points, from 21 votes (because 1 person couldnt vote for themselves)

So in that case, Team H actually has a better ranking, they end up with a lower score (points divided by COUNT). Team G is 7.05263, but Team H is 6.66666

Noticably different result, right?

(I'm using COUNT because it is an Excel term and I hope that makes it clearer what I mean)

The voting system only gives people's opinion of your team's ability

That's a very fair point.

Doing it the way we do it right now I think the best way to vote could be vote per team. Between 3 agree and vote once, or one person in behalf of the team makes the vote.

Then make it compulsory to submit a vote per team. Doing it that way every team will get 13 points (based on this year teams) and then it would be a fair ranking based on the opinion.

Then if ties happen the playoff could be played to untie the result.