Support Mini Holland

Come on now, you've seen the size of tank that people drive around Norf London :-)

Nah. Can't see 'em for all the cars blocking the way

I like how "save our parking" appears to have taken priority over "support our high street" :-/

They see them both as sides of the same coin. Local business owners tend to believe that a town centre with little car parking will not be prosperous, but that's a mistake. The problem is that traditional town centres like high streets can't compete with out-of-town shopping centres on car parking, but instead really have to compete on the basis of other ways of attracting people, such as ambience, tradition, local shops, etc. This doesn't stop them trying to compete on car parking, though, and it's easy to see why the battle will be about this.

They probably have a point that those middle-class cycle commuters who travel into London in the morning will not necessarily shop at their high street (they probably have cars at home and fill the boot at an out-of-town centre at the week-end like most others), but quite generally the benign modes (walking, cycling, and public transport) bring more customers than car traffic even in Outer London. Also, the constant domination of the high street by through motor traffic, which for the most part doesn't stop, or the presence of car parking, which is impermeable both visually as well as making it harder to cross the street (it's vital for any shopping street that it can be crossed easily), put customers off rather than attract them.

Car parking is also often used by shopkeepers themselves rather than leaving it free for potential customers, but here they're obviously talking about pay-and-display parking where they may even have data. In a sense, they're probably even missing a trick, as a large part of the discussion will be about loading arrangements (much more important for shops) rather than car parking.

Well if you're a resident of Enfield I would suggest you get the word out because you're already behind in the battle of hearts and minds.

Someone needs to get posters up refuting those already there. And you need to be EXTREMELY reasonable with some very irrational people to win support.

You need a sort of catchy poster version of what oliver schick just said.

Enfield is fucking terrible at getting anything done so I am not confident that Mini Holland won't just end up like Broomfield House, with dozens of factions arguing amongst themselves over what to do right up until the day that every road in Enfield collapses into a fault line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broomfield_House

It's not helped by the fact that the MP for Enfield Southgate, David Burrowes, is himself not a proponent of the scheme. As you might expect from a bloody Tory, though the funds were allocated by the bloody Tories in the first place, firstly through Westminster and then through BoJo in his capacity as Mayor. It will be a long, hard road for Enfield, which is partly why the swift movement in Waltham Forest is so important to this area too.

As you might expect from a bloody Tory, though the funds were allocated by the bloody Tories in the first place, firstly through Westminster and then through BoJo in his capacity as Mayor.

It has its origin, however, in a funding programme proposed by the Commissioner's Policy Unit in February 2008 and announced by Ken Livingstone as part of his bid for re-election. It's not a party political issue.

Yeah.

BUT TORIES THO

Is that Edmonton Green? Looks like Edmonton Green. How did they manage to clear all the cars enough for the road to be partially visible? Must be a photoshop

Did you mean to ask that about the poster or the car tower picture?

Did you mean to ask that about the poster or the car tower picture?

I meant the car tower one. The Green Lanes poster is a definite photoshop because none of the little tumbleweeds are driving 4x4s.

It also hugely fake because the lane width ironically complied with TfL's recommendation width.

I meant the car tower one. The Green Lanes poster is a definite photoshop because none of the little tumbleweeds are driving 4x4s.

It's not a Photoshop, it's an 'artist's impression'. :)

It also hugely fake because the lane width ironically complied with TfL's recommendation width.

You forget ease of carrying/transport being a big help in spending, especially with supermarket and casual pass by sales. Can they get it home easily being more important than do they really want it.

This does get mentioned in a few high street reports as well as other ways of increase the vitality and viability of high streets.

Their little picture actually shows parking, and is that a bike shop on the right corner?

No, it's this:

http://www.skateattack.co.uk/

I am reading Straphanger at the moment

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straphanger-Saving-Cities-Ourselves-Automobile-ebook/dp/B0071VUU3I/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

(hat tip to Oliver for the recommendation, many moons ago)

Currently on the chapter about how Copenhagen became what it is today and there is a short paragraph about how data was being collected about pedestrians in the Strøget, and how whenever a businessman claimed to have been ruined by pedestrianisation the mayor's office was able to say, well we've got data here showing 6000 more people a day passing your shop than they were five years ago, are you sure you're a good businessman?

Made me smile. Looks like Cophenhagen went through all the same things we're going through now, plus ça change and all that. Data, hard data, relating to the streets and areas that are being changed, published openly and transparently is what's needed for everyone's benefit right now.

I have some Walthamstow dwelling friends who have been very local about mini-Holland to the negative. The way the argument is being framed on both sides of the pro Vs against side is very depressing.

The infrastructure in Holland works because lots of people cycle and aren't car-centric/obsessed - cycling is an attractive option to lots of people because of the infrastructure, the infrastructure is supported and invested in because so many people cycle and round and round it goes.

Cycling in this country is still seen as something odd, out of the ordinary, the exception rather than the rule. It's really not usual to hear people say"ooh! aren't you brave cycling in London" from perfectly rational people. Mini-Holland isn't just about cyclists. It's about encouraging people to cycle more for those short trips around where they live but also making the streets more pleasant for the people who live there, for the kids who want to play outside etc.

The majority of motorists though think it's a right to be able to drive from their front door to wherever they want to go, even if it's just 5 mins down the road. Depressing but true. People need to be convinced to leave their cars at home for mini-Holland to work - how you do that is the big question.

Which brings you back to the issue of good infrastructure which plays a part in encouraging people to walk or cycle instead of driving but it's only a small part innit.

Me and 'im indoors drove from Peckham to Walthamstow to see the in-laws last sunday and the traffic was definitely worse than before on the main roads so I can see why people have got the hump. We're not very good at seeing the bigger picture/longer term/beyond our own noses in this country.

Anyhoo, will sign and send to the outlaws as even as car driving types I know they are fans of mini-Holland - my future father in law has been campaigning to get the speed limit down and speed humps installed on their road for years <3

The infrastructure in Holland works because lots of people cycle and aren't car-centric/obsessed

It wasn't always that way - Copenhagen used to be a car-filled hellhole just like anywhere else. They had the political will to change it by making it more and more difficult to drive, though, and my hope is that we can get the same thing happening here. Always look forward :-)

WAR ON MOTORISTS! STEALTH TAX ON MIDDLE CLASSES!

But yeah, Daily Fail headlines aside you're right of course. I just fret about how far away we are from that tipping point of people changing their perspectives innit.

That Straphanger tome looks an interesting read mind. I'm currently on a positive psychology text - I should try and channel some of that into the mini-Holland debate!

I can see how Green Lanes as it is is far preferable (admittedly not the same section of Green Lanes)

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I just fret about how far away we are from that tipping point of people changing their perspectives innit.

It does feel very far away, I know what you mean. But then again, it seems a little nearer than it used to, and that the mini-Holland scheme has even been seriously proposed in the first place, let alone been bid for by 20 separate Boroughs(!) is a really positive sign. So too are the cycle superhighways, shit though they are - it's an initial attempt to bring more options to people than sitting in traffic jams all day.

The negative rhetoric is absolutely depressing, but remember it comes from a place of fear - people are afraid they'll lose money, they're afraid they'll lose time, they're afraid they'll lose their freedom. It's a natural reaction to be afraid of change, and that councils are trying these things out anyway, even with the waves of fear rippling throughout their boroughs, is hopefully a sign that they're going to base their approaches on data rather instead of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is where your positive psychology text would come in handy!

I can see how Green Lanes as it is is far preferable (admittedly not the same section of Green Lanes)

I'm sure that many of those cars probably belong to people who own or work in those shops. Every time I ride through I'm struck by how noisy and shit it is and how badly that space has been wasted. What are all you people doing there! Hardly any of you are stopping, none of you are delivery trucks, and I sincerely doubt all of you are disabled. But those are the arguments against reducing car use that keep cropping up again and again.