Should Scotland be an independent country?

i joined the green party. Patrick Harvie ftw.

Now, join GFGSS and let's get the fuck out of here.

#somanythickimperialistcunts

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/yes-landslide-if-westminster-breaks-powers-vow-1-3548368

http://www.scotsman.com/video/news/glasgow-reacts-to-indyref-no-result-3795019847001

Listen to the Welshman.

As spectacles go, and especially given my totally disinterested stance, every one of my posts on this topic has been even more pointless than two bald men fighting over a comb.

ftfy

it's clear that the over 65's delivered 'victory' to the No side.

From the tone of your post, it seems like your policy would be to euthanise the pensioners to prevent a recurrence of their despicable behaviour, in which case your discussion of the security or otherwise of pensions is moot.

perfectly justifiable for the SNP to call another referendum

Quite right too, let's have a vote every week until the people see sense and deliver the result you want.

Have you never heard this ancient joke:
Q. How do you know when a politician is lying?
A. Their lips move.

All politicians lie all the time. Your lot do it just as much as their lot. To suggest that the No liars were more influential than the Yes liars is not really credible.

Brilliant. From the man who bases his political views on the inchoate ramblings of a computer games journalist (and full time troll) from Bath. Enjoy GFGSS. I'm not sure we will miss your input.

-From the Lord Ashcroft poll it's clear that the over 65's delivered 'victory' to the No side.

-Given the (indisputable) scare tactics of the No side about security of pensions (contradicted by the Treasury) the above is deeply unsurprising. Add in their greater likelihood to vote by post weeks before the actual vote and you're seeing a huge swathe of some of society's most insecure and vulnerable voters being influenced by inaccurate information given out by the three main political backers of 'Project Fear' (again, their title). Class act.

They're not indisputable, unless you have indisputable evidence? I've not seen any yet...

I'm quite prepared to believe that it may have happened to some degree, but what about the other factors that would have influenced older people's votes? The 57,000 Scots who died fighting under the Union flag in WW2, which many of them lived through? A more conservative approach to breaking up the Union in older people? That wouldn't be surprising: it wasn't that long ago that Queen and Commonwealth were held in such high regard. Outdated now but it may well have affected the willingness of older people to vote yes. Many, many other factors too.

-The purdah period agreed by Cameron in the Edinburgh agreement stated that within the last 30 days of the referendum, no substantive changes to the proposals on either side would be made. This is intended to stop the very same last minute desperate offers of Devo Max that Cameron, in his statesman like composed wisdom, didn't want on the ballot. He did it anyway in the last three days because he was going to lose Scotland, and having said the only thing he could have to get a No vote, now looks to be reneging on it-leaving Brown looking like even more of a gormless twat that he did after Blair kindly made him nursemaid to the recession and the war on terror. So, we'll never know how many more than 1,617,989 people would have voted yes if he'd stuck to the format of the in/out referendum he himself stipulated, will we?

Lesson here being never trust Cameron, ever. But Lord Ashcroft's polling which you like quoting so much shows that most people who voted no knew they were going to vote no well ahead of referendum day. 72% always knew they were going to vote no or had decided a year or more before the referendum.

Pensions was a big reason no voters voted no, but so was keeping the pound: an issue the SNP never properly addressed.

-Now that Cameron's made his solemn vow to bribe people to vote no, if he backs out, he's basically lied to the Scottish electorate a la 1979. It makes it perfectly justifiable for the SNP to call another referendum.

Except that Lord Ashcroft's polling also shows that No voters think the referendum should settle Scottish independence for a lifetime, whereas unsurprisingly most yes voters think it should be revisited within a decade.

There were more no voters than yes voters. You are badly missing the point.

Personally, if I was Scottish I would have voted yes and I would also have been gutted it was a no, so I do understand. I don't believe nationalism is the answer to anything but ridding Scotland of the Tories forever and putting the country on a firm social democratic footing, forever, would have been just too tempting.

There is no gloating among the 'Nos' I know because they realise Cameron and Hague are going to use this to screw us all over. Even if Yes voters feel bitter and disillusioned with Labour they need to realise that it is in their interests if a Labour government is elected next year because you'll be a hell of a lot better off negotiating a devolution settlement with a Labour government than a Tory one.

Also everyone should join the SNP because they have just/are about to overtake the Lib Dems as the third party ;)

you'll be a hell of a lot better off negotiating a devolution settlement with a Labour government than a Tory one

How is that? Labour have everything to lose (their ability to legislate in England) and the Tories have plenty to gain (heading off UKIP). Assuming you accept that there will be a dose of devolution all round.

everyone should join the SNP because they have just/are about to overtake the Lib Dems as the third party

Of course. Populists thrive in opposition. From a party point of view the outcome is the best possible for the SNP. Large vote 'yes', well-run campaign that made monkeys of the unionists, and none of the challenges of success.

Except that Lord Ashcroft's polling also shows that No voters think the referendum should settle Scottish independence for a lifetime, whereas unsurprisingly most yes voters think it should be revisited within a decade.

There were more no voters than yes voters. You are badly missing the point.

If Devo Max isn't delivered as explicitly promised, and the SNP get re-elected with the intention of calling another referendum, this is democracy, regardless of whether people in the London like it or not. Because of the broken promises, and the scale of the Yes grassroots movement, Yes are likely to win it. You're badly missing your own point.

Given the front page of the Times today this is looking more and more likely, and just saying 'never trust the UK's Democratically elected Prime Minister ever' doesn't really a) endorse democracy either, and b) support your own views that another referendum is somehow illegitimate. If the head of the UK lies to the people of one of the constituent countries to get a vote, he's making himself even more illegitimate than the fact that the SNP actually have a larger majority than him, as do the losing Yes side in terms of vote percentage.

Given than this is from the man who repeatedly makes large posts presenting his own opinions as fact, which are then repeatedly contradicted and disproven without so much as an acknowledgement before moving on to his next spurious observations, I'll be sure to file that in the 'Self-Important Jizz-Stain Commentaries' drawer.

All politicians lie all the time.

If you've resigned yourself to this belief then there's really no point in you contributing to any kind of political conversation, is there?

You're still here?

from the man who repeatedly makes large posts presenting his own opinions as fact, which are then repeatedly contradicted and disproven

My irony meter just exploded

If you were able to detect irony you'd take yourself off for a quiet chat.

From pensions to the pound T-V likes to go round and round...

I say we stop the bickering. It's not getting us anywhere.

Might be worth moving the focus further towards what's (not) happening now.

It's not getting us anywhere.

You seem to be falsely assuming that we're aiming to get somewhere.

#youmustbenewhereetc. :)

Lets have a referendum every week for a year, and then we can just average the scores to see who wins.

If you've resigned yourself to this belief then there's really no point in you contributing to any kind of political conversation, is there?

Well, there's always a conversation to be had about how we stop these avaricious, vainglorious, mendacious scumbags from doing any more damage to the country. Obviously it's an uphill struggle when a clear majority of the population actually believe politicians, or at least acts as though it does, but that's no reason to give up. Let's face it, if having the majority of the population against you were a reason to give up, neither of us would bother posting here :-)

Might be worth moving the focus further towards what's happening now

OK:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/scotland-to-be-covered-in-tinfoil-2014092390921