Should Scotland be an independent country?

it doesn't surprise me that the Orange Order elicit this kind of reaction

ftfy

Ha, I fought there was something wrong there.

Would have been a fucking pain taking passport in the sleeper.
You did well Scotland. Raise a Laguvellen to you tonight.

So has 40 odd pages of lfgss debate resolved the initial question?

Yes.

Shimano.

Scotland went for the easy/safe choice.

Ha

Maybe they just went for the option which was likely to annoy the greatest number of Sassenachs. I don't think the rest of England is as enthusiastic about the Union as the Westminster Village is.

Salmond quits?

Of course. Salmond was, is, and forever will be acting solely for the interest of Salmond, not the Scottish people. He lost the opportunity to become the Great Leader, so now he doesn't want to do anything but turn up and take the money. His bonus for being first minister of about £80k on top of his MSP's salary clearly isn't enough, since unencumbered by high office he can easily take many times that from lobbyists, speaking engagements and company directorships.

What is fair about a political system that has given rise to an elite and an underclass?

What is fair about a 100m running race in which one person wins and another loses?

In both cases, a set of rules which apply equally to everybody who starts.

Elites and underclasses existed long before parliaments, so you can't really say that anything in our current forms of government gave rise to them. At best, you might say that our form of government perpetuates them, but then so does every other form yet devised, many more so than representative democracy.

Imposed government from afar is colonial rule.

That may be true, but it's irrelevant to this discussion. Scotland is part of the same small island as England and, for all the faults of our mutual history, acceded to the union voluntarily, so the rule of Scotland from Westminster is neither 'imposed' nor 'from afar' in any common meaning of those terms.

What if...

Cameron and Milliband sat down before the referendum and agreed to slow the progress of devo max by appearing to disagree on the timetable of how the powers are transferred? Probably not true but I wouldn't put it past them.

Interesting idea on R4 just now– a devolved english assembly in the north of England. Sounds odd but it might re-enfranchise those pissed of with being ignored by Westminster.

Interesting idea on R4 just now– a devolved english assembly in the north of England. Sounds odd but it might re-enfranchise those pissed of with being ignored by Westminster.

I think that would be a great thing to do. It's the main reason i supported Scottish independence - smaller governing bodies, more dispersed throughout the country. If that's what ends up coming out of all this then it'd be a fine thing. I've not got much hope that Cameron and co won't find a way to weasel out of any changes whatsoever, sadly.

That may be true, but it's irrelevant to this discussion. Scotland is part of the same small island as England and, for all the faults of our mutual history, acceded to the union voluntarily, so the rule of Scotland from Westminster is neither 'imposed' nor 'from afar' in any common meaning of those terms.

'Voluntarily'?

In the sense that an unelected clique of landowners and lords got together having bankrupted both themselves and the country and performed the merger without the consent of the population at large to save their own privileges?

That they then followed this up with what can only be described as cultural genocide in forcibly clearing people of their lands, burning houses and putting them on ships to the colonies where they were then used to displace other vulnerable people is pretty indicative of how 'voluntary' it was.

I'm also curious as to how you're arrived at the declaration Salmond was only acting in self-interest? Surely he could do all these things as he likes now instead of quitting?

Srampagnolo more like.

Modern drivetrain combined with an antiquated and disfunctional shifting mechanism.

Modern drivetrain combined with an antiquated and disfunctional shifting mechanism.

Is why we need single speed.

'Voluntarily'?

In the sense that an unelected clique of landowners and lords got together having bankrupted both themselves and the country and performed the merger without the consent of the population at large to save their own privileges?

That they then followed this up with what can only be described as cultural genocide in forcibly clearing people of their lands, burning houses and putting them on ships to the colonies where they were then used to displace other vulnerable people is pretty indicative of how 'voluntary' it was.

Once again, even if sung by an Irishman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcm3MmD7uyc

'Voluntarily'?

That's why I said "for all the faults of our mutual history". The English population had no more choice in the matter than the Scots did, but it's still very different from conquest by arms.

I'm also curious as to how you're arrived at the declaration Salmond was only acting in self-interest? Surely he could do all these things as he likes now instead of quitting?

As first minister, even a British politician might feel constrained from maximising his earnings from outside sources. It's clear that back-benchers feel no such compunction. Hence he needs to cash in now, albeit on a more modest scale than Plan A which was to serve one term as Great Leader and retire to spend more time with other people's money as a scaled down Tony Blair.

So, based on nothing you're happy to attribute his career motivations and a 24 year dedication to Scottish Independence, as a strategy of 'maximising his earnings'?

It strikes me that if he was solely focused on money he would have remained in the oil or finance industries where he could profiteer at will like so many others do?

I find it hilarious people are so eager and willing to conflate Salmond with Independence as if it was some personal conquest where he wanted to be 'Great Leader'. He's had the honour and good sense to fall on his sword as a gesture of reconciliation and humility in defeat, yet you attribute it solely to 'cashing in' to 'spend time with other people's money'.

Even if it had passed, the chances of him remaining as head of the SNP would have been minimal as he is very aware of his own unpopularity amongst a significant proportion of the electorate-even those who voted SNP. He only came back to the SNP because John Swinney was so woeful and they were at risk of collapsing, and he's always been happy to have Nicola Sturgeon there as his clear successor to ensure a smooth transition.

Really, tester-you are obviously an intelligent person and your contributions on science and technical matters are always interesting but I find it sad when it comes to matters like this you are so quick to indulge strange turns of logic.

So, based on nothing you're happy to attribute his career motivations and a 24 year dedication to Scottish Independence, as a strategy of 'maximising his earnings'?

It's not based on nothing, it's based on observation of the political class. We shall see, if Salmond doesn't earn over £750k* in the next 5 years , either he has misjudged his worth or I'm wrong about his motivations, and I'll accept your conclusion that it's the latter.

*Adjust to whatever the First Minister earns over the same period +20%, on the assumption that with Devo-Max the bastards will award themselves huge pay rises on the spurious grounds of 'additional workload'

Ex-politicians earn money through consultancy and public appearances. Of course. I can't help but feel you're being a bit disingenuous with your attributing it to observations of 'political class' when Salmond grew up in a council house and was already successful before entering, and subsequently re-entering, SNP leadership. Westminster political class perhaps-yes Salmond himself has forbidden SNP politicians from participating in Westminster votes that don't concern Scottish MP's, both as a kind of symbolism of undue interference coming the other way and a rejection of the institution.

You put this as Salmond's primary motivation, which given he's devoted himself to a minority political party and what even this year was considered a minority cause and an intangible objective, seems deeply improbable when a man as talented and connected as he was could have easily found a thousand different ways of earning huge sums of money. It doesn't really tally for me but I'm sure you have your reasons.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that MSP's aren't exempt or less likely from having their snouts in the trough, but likewise, the culture up here doesn't seem to be quite as gratuitous as the one in Westminster as there are rules in place that are less ambiguous and they do actually rely on their local constituency for their positions. The Scottish parliament's allowances for staff and accommodation or transport are capped, with all expenses for each MSP published online. It's the Scottish MP's at Westminster like Jim Devine that got caught rinsing the far more lax allowances system, and currently, pay increases for MSP's are capped at 87.5% of any pay rise that gets approved in Westminster, with the caveat that there are times making this award may be inappropriate.

If nothing else, Salmond approved a token 1% pay rise for SNHS nurses where Westminster didn't, and though you could say that it was political point scoring, I also believe he's quite a principled and fair-minded person even if he comes across as smug or unlikable a lot of the time.

The English say "together" which means "we tell you what to do". If 55% of Scottish are so gullible to accept an arrangement whereby another country can veto any decision they make while systematically draining all their natural resources and then telling them they didn't exist in the first place then how can they have the intelligence to run their own country?
The 10% undecided were swayed by last minute lies from London - Devo will not be offered at least not in any meaningful way which will lead to more discontent and another referendum in ten years.

^ friend has offered this rather pessimistic evaluation of events to the world via his blog. I kinda think he nailed it.

Pendulum politics in the UK is a disaster. No matter what side you pick, a country should largely have a shared and united vision that it holds to for a very long period of time. Scotland has a chance to do this and build a country that reflects the needs and wants of the people there.

Have we had any pendulum politics since the last socialist labour government was ousted in the 70's?

Alex Salmond always amazed me with how great the public opinion was of him, relative to most modern political leaders.

I guess part of this was due to how successful the Scottish devolution and parliament has been. Free education, helping to save the NHS, legalising gay marriage, etc. you couldn't really complain.

a set of rules which apply equally to everybody who starts

Ha! You’re funny.

I didn't think it was that funny. I know it's a waste of time to keep pointing it out to the communist majority on here, who seem immune to logic.

I do find the contrast in the prevailing political mood between here and the TTForum striking, not sure why two groups of cyclists should diverge so radically, but I recommend that anybody even slightly liberal should steer clear if they are easily offended, even I find them a bit much sometimes :-)