Should Scotland be an independent country?

SALMOND RESIGNS
Indeed, while I intensely dislike the man, he's a very clever politician.

Lots of Scots on my facebook timeline lamenting "the worst day of mah life" and "we're all fucked noo" and "might as well emigrate".

Who knew that fat turd was so popular?

Hope is popular.

A lot of Scots who didn't support independence nevertheless enjoyed having him sitting there tweaking Cameron's nose.

Hope is popular.

Clearly not that popular

Clearly not that popular

Clearly incredibly popular that a country would come so close to becoming independent in the face of enormous fear and uncertainty.

So close! But not quite close enough

45% hoped for independence. 55% hoped for unity. That = 100% hope. Very popular.

He has just got a modicum of integrity, unlike his counterparts in other parties.

As far as I, or anyone else who voted Yes I've spoken to is concerned, if Cameron, Miliband, Brown and Clegg renege on the promises made, they'll kill their own political futures in Scotland, further damage their parties, and give the SNP the mandate to call another referendum much sooner than 20 years.

The next general election Scotland gets the choice of voting for a Labour party that's barely discernible from the Tories as the only alternative to a dangerous rightwing clown like Boris trying to appease UKIP, or, of course, voting for the cadaver of Nick Clegg and the wonderful things he's achieved in power.

I don't see much to be positive about there, and it just underlines how dysfunctional UK politics is. The 'root and branch' reform will fizzle out like the banking reforms, the press reforms or anything else. Even last night as the vote had just been called John Reid is trying to backpedal and say that 'it wasn't a vote for independence, it was a protest vote'. No it fucking wasn't.

The celebrations of Darling are equally rancid-the man's as competent as his management of both the campaign and the economy imply and yet he still tries to type cast the Yes campaigners as violent thugs and the No's as the well behaved quiet people who've done what they're told.

UK can fuck off-thankfully Farage might be useful for taking England out of both Europe and Britain at the same time, and you'll deserve what you get when it arrives as it isn't the same nationalism as in Scotland.

Oh, there's definitely some of that kind of nationalism in Scotland too. If you haven't seen it, you've not been there very long.

UK can fuck off-thankfully Farage might be useful for taking England out of both Europe and Britain at the same time, and you'll deserve what you get when it arrives as it isn't the same nationalism as in Scotland.

Wow dude, read your other post with interest and enjoyed how passionate you are, however that is just throwing your toys out of the pram and is offensive.

Did any newspapers go with "Och aye the NO"?

don't see much to be positive about there, and it just underlines how dysfunctional UK politics is. The 'root and branch' reform will fizzle out like the banking reforms, the press reforms or anything else. Even last night as the vote had just been called John Reid is trying to backpedal and say that 'it wasn't a vote for independence, it was a protest vote'. No it fucking wasn't.

I stand firmly in #bettertogether camp however think it's a shame he's resigned as I truly believed he was the right man to lead Scotland through devomax. It's a shame he's throwing it all away really. All easy to say from the comfort of London though. Let's hope someone more personable takes over an continues his good work.

if Cameron, Miliband, Brown and Clegg renege on the promises made, they'll kill their own political futures in Scotland, further damage their parties

The problem you have there is that Cameron presently has power in the UK and the Tories already have virtually no power in Scotland. The threat of less power if they ignore or dilute their promises is effectively empty. The Tories will do what the Tories always do, accelerate and hope to spin things off into private hands, which is their equivalent of leaving the Church stuff in your will... it's damn hard to reverse.

Only Labour have a significant amount to lose (and gain), but that only works if it at all looks likely that Scotland's voters will back Labour. I wouldn't bang the drum of indistinguishableness from the Tories too loudly.

Did you accidentally hit reply on my post while quoting from uber's? Or is the forum doing something odd?

He clicked reply on yours, but had highlighted Ubers.

Salmond's announcement of resignation was dignified.

In any case, it seems odd to see Salmond being labelled "un-personable".

Offensive? Salmond being compared to Mugabe in the press is offensive. Scotland being compared to the Weimar Republic by the BBC is offensive. Twats like Ben King who'se families own thousands of acres of land in Scotland and claim millions in farming subsidies a year for doing nothing with it holding 'we love you Scotland' events in Trafalgar Square are offensive. Unfounded forecasts of violence and chaos throughout Scotland made by the PM are offensive. A great many of the posts in this thread are deliberately offensive and operate on lazy generalities and stereotypes. Take umbrage with that first then I might reevaluate how much I give a shit if my post offends you.

UKIP are openly racist, and they have enough influence to be creating a big crisis of policy within the Tories. They'll be focused on ensuring there's an in/out vote on Europe, and stirring up enough bile to make sure it happens. That's a fact, whether you like it or not, and by using the referendum as an excuse to 'punish' the Scots or establish an English-only parliament the UK as a political concept grows ever more tenuous. That's not throwing toys out the pram, that's just the way it is.

This was Scotland's chance to break off with as little pain as it would ever cause, I don't think it will be the same if it happens in 8, 16 or 30 years from now.

The reanimated Scottish Labour frankenstein of Gordon Brown on the political horizon offers little solace or hope, and career politicians like Jim Murphy crying crocodile tears for the last few weeks hasn't done much to endear them, even if they weren't totally subject to the UK labour agenda.

Miliband's already endorsed Tory policies and as a politician is about as inspiring as a pigeon pecking at dog shit. I see little to gain by the Scots repeatedly giving them a majority they don't deserve and take for granted.

Similar to my background. Living conditions have improved in the UK, we use to have ice on the inside of the windows in the winter and a coal fire to heat the water. I've been homeless twice, a self employed tradesman for 20 years on low wages and kept out of debt and poverty.

I've not heard many stories from people who stay impoverished throughout their lives while also working hard to improve their lot. Met a lot of addicts and gamblers who would happily screw their own lives up and take you down with them though.

If people want to complain about the big picture why don't they do something directly for the 'underclass' on their street. I'll do people a favour when they need it, I don't expect the government to handle it all or payment for everything I do. There are people in life you can't help though, self destructive people.

Your point about the NHS and Social Housing (I would add free education) making a difference is true and we have those facilities and it has changed peoples lives. All of this was started hundreds of years ago by wealthy industrialists and landowners (the elite).

Correlation of individual and parental earnings in OECD:

Could you link to a document that explains that graph. I can't understand what it's showing me! My comprehension of people avoiding poverty/increasing wealth comes from personal experience so I'd like to know more about the wider statistics.

I'll do people a favour when they need it

No, you might do people a favour when you see fit. Thats not enough to address any real need.
This is the same nonsense Cameron wants us to believe whenhe talks of the 'big society'.
It makes for a good soundbite but its no substitute for social justice.

So has 40 odd pages of lfgss debate resolved the initial question?

Correlation of individual and parental earnings in OECD:

Could you link to a document that explains that graph. I can't understand what it's showing me! My comprehension of people avoiding poverty/increasing wealth comes from personal experience so I'd like to know more about the wider statistics.

Chart is from an OECD report on social mobility: http://www.oecd.org/tax/public-finance/chapter%205%20gfg%202010.pdf

It shows the extent to which income is predicted by parental income - the bigger the bar, the more likely you are to have income comparable to that of your parents. The UK is Privilege Central.