Should Scotland be an independent country?

An independent Scotland (from the news report I was half watching whilst ironing my shirt this morning) would seem to be promising it's potential citizens a significantly better deal in terms of social/welfare/pensions/NHS than the English currently have, and given the Tories seeming intention to totally destroy the NHS, there will be no contest in future.

Does this mean that the refugees who currently congregate at Sangatt in order to get into the UK would, in the event of a yes vote, all perform a version of LEJOG?

Shout down other arguments or view points by all means, but there is a massive degree of uncertainty over the EU and currency and to simply ignore that is dangerous. I suspect that the UK and other EU states won't be particularly generous in bending the rules and doing Scotland favours.

Since when is responding in kind 'shouting down'?

You've taken some very small snippets from a book that repeatedly states as you do 'that there is a massive degree of uncertainty' and tried to twist them to suit your argument.

I've highlighted areas of your statements that are pure fantasy, and you've no real response but to keep shifting the terrain of argument.

If nothing else, Scotland's not just a region. It's a country. We're enjoying democratic freedom, for better or worse, and if you don't live here then you really don't have much to lose other than a bunch of whingeing benefit junkies to our weak democratic institutions and a future of fascist rule by the SNP, right?

You po-faced unionists really need to lighten up and try to crack your sour puss's once in a while.

http://youtu.be/bewOumPliLk

Scotland also has 60% of the EU's natural resources

This is classic campaigning. Take a truth, massage it, ignore the real context, then repackage it as a truth.

Scotland does not have 60% of the EU's natural resources. It has 60% of EU proven oil & gas reserves. But that completely ignores the fact that the energy industry is not EU-bound. Apart from all the other non-Russian suppliers, European energy supply depends to a considerable extent on non-EU Norway, which has over ten times Scotland's natural gas reserves and over three times its oil reserves.

But never mind, now the Yes campaign has scored another killer point.

Happily enough, Glasgow's already home to the biggest proportion of asylum seekers in the UK.

There is a joke that the government does this is because they all hate the weather and food so much that they will go home, but I can't attest to how true this is.

But the statement is true, isn't it? And it represents a substantial amount of oil, does it not? And there's nothing in that statement that denies any of the other information you've cited, is there?

This really hits home for me. Scotland exports 30,000 young people every year, and 'brain drain' has being going on for centuries with mass emigration. The primary reason is London-centric economic policy and lack of job creation north of the border, combined with de-industrialisation.

You are not going to end London-centric economic policy without refusing a currency union.

It still seems like a lot of your arguments are based on some difference that exists in Scotland that will allow it to succeed where the UK is destined to fail. The UK is failing part of it's population all the time, even if you raise taxes for the wealthy to 90% and give it all to the poor you will be perceived as failing by a minority. What makes the majority of Scottish people that different from the majority of the UK?

"Who knows for sure? But difficult to avoid a feeling of bitterness and resentment within Scotland and between Scotland and the rest, an incurable sense of unfinished business, and more devolution throughout the UK which becomes a recipe for corruption and waste."

So no change at all then basically?

I'm just glad I don't have to make this decision. I have a hard enough time deciding which shampoo to buy.

Yup, that's the extent of my contribution to this discussion. Interesting read though :)

^You do realise that Scotland is home to 98% of the U.K.'s shampoo mines?

So my shampoo will instantly treble in price with a 'yes' result?! Great scot!!!

How sad it would be to break the PM's heart though :/

What makes the majority of Scottish people that different from the majority of the UK?

Again, you re-appear to try and make this straw-man argument that implies people in Scotland think they are somehow better. I'm not even going to bother rising to it.

Re: London-centric economic policy: You clearly know more than Nobel prize-winning economists so I'll leave you to enjoy that perspective and insight yourself. Personally, I feel that we could have a currency pegged to the value of the pound and still be successful, but that this is the less preferred option to forming a sterling-zone.

Re: difference: we're different from the majority of people in the UK in that we're Scottish, and not English, Welsh or Irish. Apart from any difference in identity and values that this implies, our political and economic ecology are incredibly different from the population-dense South of England. Obviously, a large amount of people feel that the UK political system is so badly representative of their needs and aspirations that they would prefer independence and the ability to democratically elect politicians that better reflect these.

Obviously, no political system is perfect, but there are degrees of perfection and imperfection that are acceptable. I, like many others, find Westminster politics with all that it represents unacceptable, inefficient, and badly serving an absolute majority of people in the UK.

and queenie, don't forget queenie.

So no change at all then basically?

Hey, I already made that joke.

I can see how it got lost in the 40 paragraph long outbursts above, though, so I will forgive you for stealing my joke and repurposing it as your own. You are probably English and therefore in cahoots with Westminster and unable to stop yourself help yourself, iyswim.

Where's the doom and gloom, financial armageddon here? All sounds quite... sensible. Wow.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152760566667848

I must admit it is tempting to vote yes in the hope that we see Cameron dribbling incoherently in the days afterwards, with his big red sweaty ham face even redder and sweatier

you're obviously not a proper bona fide jocko or you would have called me bawheid.
(sorry for nickin yuh joke) :)

You are consistently rude, I'll give you that.

I'm not implying Scottish people think they are better. But your argument is you can be better with independence. You want a better life, so do people in the UK. You think the current system is unfair, so do people in the UK. What's going to change to make Scotland better, what's the difference in politics that will create that. The Scot's have had representation in Westminster, they've contributed and at the highest level, why would a independent Scotland be served by better politicians.

If you peg your currency to any other currency you are still unable to adjust for macro-economic stability. You will still have London-centric economic policy governing your currency. I may not know more than Nobel prize-winning economists but you certainly seem to know less than me. You are right about me enjoying my perspective and insight though.

if you don't live here then you really don't have much to lose other

My parents, both my sisters, my brother-in-law and my niece and nephew live in Scotland, so excuse me for taking more than a passing interest and concerning myself with their pension, future work prospects, education and greater society.

If you'd a genuine interest you might try reading more than the little snippets you selected before proclaiming scenarios of permanent SNP domination and weak democratic institutions when we've already put in place PR and don't have an unelected group of peerages and cronies sitting in the eaves.

I hope you enjoy Gideon, Boris and Nigel too.

@T-V is an estate agent AICMFP... Fuck Westminster, fuck it hard... I wish Scotland well, look after yourselves cuz the UK is only after your tax dollarz...

Scotland also has 60% of the EU's natural resources

But the statement is true, isn't it? And it represents a substantial amount of oil, does it not?

If I had a vote, this is the reason I would vote 'no'. The habit of the 'yes' campaigners to take data, subtly but significantly alter that data, and to strip the data of context to make an argument that the data do not support. I would be thinking, my gut says 'yes', more self-determination is a good thing, but my mind would say what else are these guys fooling with?

The problem with Uber's statement is a) it is untrue, Scotland does not have 60% of the EU's natural resources, no amount of saying it is true will make it so, and b) it is irrelevant. The point was made to support Scotland's attractiveness to the EU as a new member state, but Scotland's oil (not 'natural resources') would not be a significant factor in that decision. The world currently has 1041 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, of which Scotland has 3 billion. Most oil production is traded freely, having less than 0.3% of the world's oil is not going to make Scotland a must-have new member of the EU - a fact that former energy economist Salmond knows very well.

I'm not saying the 'no' campaign is any less mendacious, I am saying that the 'yes' campaign is trying to lead part of the UK away into an uncertain future for Scotland and a certain diminution for the rump UK based on shoddy stats. Plus the absurd argument that they will be fine with a currency union that the rest of the UK does not want and which is entirely incompatible with political independence.

However will go the Tory will find good speeches to blame this or that with the only purpose of keep on making the rich richer at the expenses of the others.

Ah yes. Or David Beckham.

Anyone see on the news - or even join in with - the 'We love you Scotland, pretty please don't leave us' rally, spear-headed by Eddie Izzard and Dan Snow, in Trafalgar Square tonight? http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/eddie-izzard-urges-londoners-to-rally-tonight-to-show-scotland-we-care-9733340.html

Any excuse to wear a skirt, ey, Eddie? ;)