Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yeah, I see what you mean, I'm not a fan of Salmond the man but he's a good politician and despite all the allegations of vanity, seems to care about something outside himself and his career.

The nice thing is we can vote Salmond out at any time regardless-he's got a majority vote after all based on plenty of policies that have nothing to do with independence-whereas presently we're stuck with drones like darling and rightwing loons like BoJo whether we like it or not.

I was in Aberdeen and Peterhead last week and was frankly shocked how poverty stricken both places were contrary to their status as the primary oil and gas hubs of the UK. It's a disgrace that so much wealth has benefited so few, and Darling crowing tonight about how Scotland 'only gets the tax on the oil' is a travesty in itself when forward thinking would have led to the establishment of a national oil and gas exploratory company doing everything from surveying to extraction and processing.

Go Scotland.

And don't come back.

lol

Sorry to burst your bubble but Scotland's a fixed land mass. Unless Trident has an accidental detonation it's not going anywhere.

You'll just need to console yourself in the warm embrace of the Tories or the soothing words of the Daily Mail comments section.

Joking aside Skully, no-one ever has. Not USA, not India, not Ireland, not one single commonwealth nation - none have ever tried to repeal their independence from British Rule. It's a pretty telling history.

I love when alex steps out in front of the podium and moves his arms around like the friendly reassuring politician . Hes a good speaker he doesnt have to do that , or the way he drives the "mandate for the scottish people" over again and again . Like you gruber i come from the former second city of the empire i grew up in a place with no future and promptly left . But when i go back there now i see a better future ( though it does seem to be call centres) , scots should go alone most of my friends and family agree and most of us dont live there and dont have a vote ......

whats a currency worth if your skint ? glasgow 1 in 3 unemployed in the 1990s , same today i believe , sickest city in western world in 1990s , had the tag of most violent place in western europe and poverty akin to parts of india .....thats just glasgow in the 6th richest nation on earth wtf ?

If that's the case, sounds like a pretty compelling reason to fuck off then, no? Westminster must not be too bothered.

That may have been your point, actually? Not sure. Anyway, if I was Scottish I would be thinking pretty hard.

Actually, no. I know what I'd be voting.

Although I'd feel a bit sorry for the rest of the UK...

sadly not much that scotland can do about rest of uk though many scottish politicians welcome the idea of a northern breakaway to join scotland ! note that it was only a couple of weeks ago the tories came up with the idea to regenerate the north - took them 5 years to think this up .

I'll come with you.

The quirky thing about Scotland's desire to leave the UK is that in many ways the UK is Scotland's creation. It is the Scottish King James 6th/1st and his descendants who rule over England, rather than the other way round, and it was his desire to unite the crowns. The act of union was the culmination of this ambition, and since then Westminster has been filled with Scots politicians, and Scotland has been vastly over-represented per capita than England. Devolution only made that imbalance greater since, of course, there is no English parliament, and Scottish MPs can vote on matters that only pertain to England. Much of the Empire-building muscle and leadership was said to have been Scottish too, so expressing this as a desire to leave the British Empire is jarring, as in many ways the British Empire is Scottish.

certainly a complex history but the empire doesnt exist anymore and was built by many scots and irish too (who left ). the stuart line to the throne also no longer exists , they also ruled ireland ...when scotland and england joined in union the populations were 1/3 scots 2/3 english now its 1/10 scots 9/10 english

Edit: pretty much what Über said on the last page.

Joking aside Skully, no-one ever has. Not USA, not India, not Ireland, not one single commonwealth nation - none have ever tried to repeal their independence from British Rule. It's a pretty telling history.

My first 'sentence' was meant genuinely, my second flippant. I wholeheartedly support independence, no matter what people say about being left with a Tory perma-majority here (I don't believe that).

I've not been following the debate, either the real one or the media circus, very closely ... Does Salmond's argument extend to having their own Monarchy again, or are they hoping to be a republic?

I've never met a Scots royalist in my life. The Scots by and large loathe the aristocracy with the sort of furious passion that could only ever be held by a people who have spent decades at the arse end of the economy, while rich cunts stroll in and out of their fancy country pads in St Andrews with nary a job created for the remnants of the industrial towns and cities that were casually destroyed by successive governments within living memory. Salmond would be laughed out of town if he proposed a monarchy.

Ha. Royalists?

Ungrateful us for all the heritage and pride we're turning our backs on in providing the upper classes somewhere to go and shoot grouse whilst claiming fucking millions a year in grants for land that could do something a bit more useful than subsidising rich cunts pretending they're in an episode of Downton Abbey (that don't even live there more than the few weeks of the year they're not dodging tax abroad) poncing about their estates and stifling any real local economy developing by blocking other land uses.

And re: Scots politicians in Westminster-it's up to the English to legislate their eligibility to vote on 'English only' matters on a popular mandate. But there's no appetite to do this as for each of the main parties it would negatively impact their little collections of rotten boroughs and fiefdoms. Aside from this, Tony Blair is not considered Scottish by many up here, you might tell by his accent that he's from a different demographic, and those such as Darling and Brown as so integrated within the UK Labour party that they've got wholly different interests than representing Scottish issues.

The devolved parliament was the best things Labour did for Scotland and it's too bad they're not happy with the way things turned out-if the Scottish Labour party and Lib Dems had done a better job for Scotland instead of eternally playing second fiddle to their Westminster colleagues Salmond wouldn't be in power at the moment, and the referendum wouldn't be happening. When the dust settles Cameron and Milliband are going to wish they'd been more supportive of a Devo Max option on the ballot because even if there's a no vote, with the way people have been politically energised you're guaranteed years and years of unrest if things don't change up here.

As an indication of cultural difference up here, look at the composition of the MSP's-the vast majority of whom are working class, state educated (83%) and actually from the places they represent in parliament. Compare that to the Westminster where you've an assorted collection of private-schooled Oxbridge gollums (54% Tory, 36% LibDem, 17% Labour private schooled) that are parachuted into any available constituency where they are guaranteed a slim majority, have huge amounts of money thrown at them in electoral war chests, then set loose on the ministerial freebies and second homes allowances as a reward for putting up with pretending to live there. That's before we even get to the House of Lords and how fucked up that is as an idea in a supposed democratic system, or Prince Charles writing his little secret missives to the Cabinet to influence policy.

It stinks, yet the English working classes seem to have some aspirational Stockholm syndrome where they embrace it all as heritage or 'culture'. It's not-it's just rich privileged bastards mugging you all off on a huge scale and undermining every institution that serves you from rail privatisation, the Royal Mail to the NHS-they've all got their hands in the till.

David Cameron coming out and saying he had 'no problem' giving his friends' kids interns at no.10 and was 'totally comfortable' with it as a system is another spoke in the wheel of discontent-you've got the leader of the country endorsing a privilege-first, non-meritocratic system of preference where the best jobs and easiest routes to power will always be filled by the chums of the people already there, and all people say is 'oh, well-it's just like that, isn't it?'. For some people, yes, but that doesn't make it ok or something to endorse or aspire to when your supposed mandate is to improve social mobility and participation instead of propping up an outdated and skewed social edifice based on elitism.

You seem a little peeved about something, maybe a nice cup of tea is in order.

So does that mean no more Queen for Scotland?
#packingmybagsnow

Heh, "If Mr Cameron thinks he can deny us the Queen then he is very, very wrong" etc.

well spoken gruber !

Did we win?

Will Scotland do an Australia and vote no at the last hurdle and regret it for years to come?

Yes, that is most likely what will happen!

I reckon they'll choke, sadly. I'd like to see an independant Buckfast Land.