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Sample size for a 30k median salary in London, don't know, ask the Evening Standard. Rightmove... like I said, that's my own median. 600 a month for a houseshare doesn't sound right?

You'll get rinsed by transport costs anywhere, that's why I choose to ride to work too - Zone 4 to the city is 45 minutes-ish, about the same as my commute. Replace my occasional car use with occasional public transport and broadly it'll be similar. A few people can't ride, but most people can. In some cities most people do.

Like I've said, you can't live the same lifestyle and expect to save more. But it's not easy and not everyone's able to do it, you're right. But I think most people on a median salary can save a fair chunk, and even on a low income it's possible to save a bit.

If your post-tax pay is less than 60% of your gross income, congratulations on being a higher-rate taxpayer? Unless I'm missing something.

even if I reduced my pension to the absolute minimum

I count my contribution to my pension as saving.
The absolute minimum is zero as you can always opt out.

becoming increasingly aware and quite angry at the levels of consumerism around me and the throw-away attitude the people around me have and the environmental impact this has...
New Zealand

Ah you'll love it. It changed my outlook on life practically 180 degrees.
It's not an environmentally-friendly place though.

The article might not be showing any hard numbers, but you're just making them up.

No, I got the numbers from the Evening Standard and rightmove. What am I missing (genuine question)?

i really don't see what you're saying with this thread apart from telling us how good you are with money

To see who else is saving and why and how. I guess the first post wasn't my greatest moment.

Well the beauty is that it's not complicated if you've already got your ducks in a row...

That means you are living on a fairly small percentage of your post-tax income then? Do you eat much?

No we're both vegetarian*. You don't pay tax on the first 11k you earn, and you also don't pay tax on your pension contributions (so effectively 20% free money). That's about 50% of my income that I don't pay tax on before the money even hits my bank account. Everyone benefits from the 11k threshold and tax-free pensions, and if you're on a reasonable wage you can really pump a lot into the pension to get a great savings rate (plus employer contributions which are basically free money).

*untrue, I occasionally eat meat when she's not looking.

Is it even possible to save 60% of your pre-tax income?!

Outside of London and with two pretty normal early-middle-aged salaries, yep. It's extreme though. No doubting I'm on the extreme end of the tightwad scale.

But again, not in London, and not with kids, not on a low income (although I think most but not all people can save). London's a choice we made, not having kids until 30 is another choice. Some people don't get that choice and that sucks.

Considering most people on this forum live in a city where on average two thirds of the monthly pay check goes on rent

Yeah that's a tricky article because there are no hard numbers in there. According to the ES the median London income is 30k. According to my very rough sample (page 20 of 42) the median London rent is 600pcm (for a houseshare). That's about a couple of grand less than I earn, and about a grand more than an equivalent houseshare in my city. So all other circumstances being equal (and I am aware they are often not) maybe it's a 40% savings rate instead of 60%. But I've never lived in London so maybe I'm talking out of my arse, I don't know.

I'm not saying saving so much is easy (especially when starting out) - it's hard everywhere in the UK because consumerism's the norm. It's additionally hard in London because of the relative cost of rent vs income.

I think it's incredibly simplistic and borderline insulting to basically say "you buy so many TV's and watches that you can't afford to buy a house".

Sounds pretty Daily Mail when you put it like that, I admit. Reading my very first post I am talking about the habits of about 20 people I know. Maybe my mates and colleagues are a particularly spendy bunch, but I doubt they're anything but typical.

I'll be clear though. If you're on a low wage, life's hard, and you don't have the choices that I do. Consumerism only makes it worse but you're not really on a level playing field to begin with. Plus there's the compounding effect of financial impotence; you can't enjoy the free money of an employer pension if you can't afford the 5% sacrifice in the first place. I campaign and vote against it, for what that's worth. I can see how it's insulting, so, sorry.

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Funny you should mention watches (I don't think I have?) a friend at work has a 4 grand TAG and just bought his wife a 3k Rolex (whilst on a trip to Dubai no less), but was saying it's impossible to get a deposit together... you're fucking wearing half of it.

two kids... Thanks!

@ChasnotRobert Cheers. Truth be told I am unsure whether this can continue when we have kids. Childcare costs are quite high even though our region has great provisions (salary-sacrifice vouchers etc). I don't really know where the balance lies between paying for childcare and one of us being a stay-at-home parent... I mean ideally one of us would stay at home until the kid goes to school (by which point Kid 2 comes along) but whether that's economically feasible, I don't know. How did you find it? I've been eyeing up a nice Skoda Octavia for when we have two kids in the back... I can see how it's easy to slip.

mortgage paid off in full in the next 5-7 years. I'm 31 and have a good pension through work - some people I know of the same age have no pension provision at all and that would terrify me.

@princeperch Congrats on the mortgage. In my situation I'm unsure whether it's going to be worth paying off a mortgage early or investing the money elsewhere... I'll probably just try to do a bit of both. My pension is one area that potentially sucks - I've only been working in the UK for 8 months so I've just been matching my employer contributions. I am thinking of ramping it up to a 15% contribution since my house deposit is good. But then again, you can't usually touch pensions until normal pensionable age... again I think a mixed approach is probably best.

I read Walden when I was younger but was devastated to find out that when writing it, Thoreau lived about three miles from town and went back every few days to stock up, hah! But still a good romantic read. I'd like my own cabin up in the highlands... but we're limited on wild space in this country and I wouldn't want to impose upon it, so a nice tent will do.

The fact is that most people on average or even good money still wouldn't be able to get the money together for a deposit, even if you went with out

Maybe in London, and possibly the south east. The rest of the country... if you're on 'average or good' money I think it's entirely possible. Heck for two years I was earning about 17k and I saved most of that. But up north/in Wales/the west country, I think the difficulty is getting the 'average or good' wage in the first place, not the house prices.

@Sumo crossed wires I think, apologies. The point of the thread was to see if anyone else is doing the same thing - and it looks like some people are. I don't often talk about this to my friends because they are mostly incredulous that I can actually enjoy myself at all, which is I suppose why I assumed you were thinking the same.

No, Dunedin. The other university town. Palmie's fucking fancy compared to Dunners.

Right... sorry. Technically this is all my own doing. Realistically only possible because I had a stable home, lucky enough to go to a grammar school (a free one), and had a bit of financial education as a teenager. Being lucky enough to live in NZ for a few years had probably the biggest impact on my life, because it's a place where people don't give a shit what car you drive or what clothes you wear - where people spend more time together and seem much happier for it.

So despite sounding smug (sorry again) I do think it's possible to live a less consumerist and more stable and fulfilling life by just being a bit of a tightwad and focusing your money on the things you enjoy, and that's probably better for everyone. Wank over.

Life's too short. You may get hit by a bus tomorrow so enjoy what you're doing now.

@Sumo I do enjoy my life. I have more time to go hiking/biking because I'm not overly-worried about getting in as much overtime as I can. I'm in the pub 2-3 times a week. Expensive meals with friends/a weekend away/Christmas presents don't cause any stress, because I don't have cripplingly-high rent or a Volvo to pay off. But the first couple of years were rough.

not surprising that 'the young' spend so much money... many of them have sod all chance of buying a property so instead of saving for a deposit they spunk it on the latest gadget.

To be clear the housing situation in this country is absolutely awful. It's possible for young people to buy a property (I have a family friend who just bought her own 180k flat at age 21, and she's a receptionist, which shits all over my achievements) but it's far more difficult than it should be. It would be all too easy to say 'young people are choosing gadgets over a deposit', because we live in a consumerist society, and it's difficult to overcome that. Especially if you don't have that little bit of education and confidence that a stable home brings.

as to the important things: you drive a banger but what about your bike(s) ?

Surly Krampus Ops (MTB-bikepacker) and a 40 quid Raleigh 3-Speed that I commute on. But I'm thinking of getting something on C2W because my commute is 25% road, 50% bridleways or doubletrack, and 25% shitty raised bit between two farmed fields, and the 3 speed is not really suitable. And a Brompton that my partner and I share.

@Poetic yeah a few people have said similar things. Statistically I'm extremely unlikely to die or become incapacitated before I'm 50. I'll most likely still be active until I'm 70. Even in my 70s I can enjoy the fruits of my labour.

More importantly though, I don't feel like I am depriving myself! I think by focusing our spending on what makes us happy, we've actually been able to do a lot more. In the last year we've had three weeks in Australia, three weeks climbing mountains around NZ (granted we did already live there, but having a big wad of cash made taking unpaid leave a lot easier), a dozen weekends hiking or mountain-biking in Scotland or Wales (wild camping of course)... next week we're doing a relaxing three days on the South West Coast Path and we've still got the week before Christmas off (maybe Lake District). I still see mates 2-3 times a week, go out to restaurants occasionally. Maybe outdoors isn't your thing - focus on experiencing great food, or theatre, or vintage farm machinery - strip back on all the useless crap and you can do more of the good stuff whilst saving more money.

(@edscoble my point about Iceland was that it's possible to have an equally-remote and equally-challenging experience without breaking the bank (not that his hike was either remote or challenging). Glen Coe is just the start of the tourist trail, for two grand you could see all of Scotland)

And @Poetic I also think there is a health benefit to saving money. When I left uni at 25 I was stressed about my finances and future security, so I started saving. Four years later I've got friends and colleagues, some earning far more than me, who have been reduced to tears by an unexpected bill or car repair. I know they still have that same stress simmering away just under the surface - and their 'life enhancing' Volvo-Labrador-penthouse flat are probably the cause. I haven't had that feeling for years. We've stopped arguing about money. Car repair, who gives a fuck. If my car blows up, I'll just buy another 600 quid car.

@>>>>>> yup food's a really big one. I like cooking so that helps. Something I really liked about Australia was all the cheap local produce. Even in the centre of Melbourne people were growing stuff. I suppose this cancels out the $20 limes from Woolies.

I've got a bit of a rule about buying and selling. If I want something I ask if I'll use it at least once a week for a year. If the answer is no, I won't buy it. If the answer's yes, I'll sleep on it, and by morning the answer is usually no. If I own an item that I'm thinking about selling, I work out what I could get for it, and then ask myself if I'd buy it for the sale price (taking into account the rules above). Usually the answer is no, so I'll sell it.

I'm also a fan of serendipity. Just wait a little longer to make that purchase, and you might just get it cheaper, or even for free. A few months ago I wanted a roller-tray toolbox. I waited a little while for a cheap one to come up on ebay... but after a few weeks I found one in a skip. My entire house is furnished this way.

Again I don't want to come off as smug. Partially I am frustrated by some of my friends (and our culture) for whom consumerism is a source of stress and lost time. And partially I'm wondering if anyone else is a massive Tightwad For Life.

I'm Lewis and I'm a massive tightwad.

My partner and I save about 60% of our pre-tax income. I do it because (in the long run) I want to retire at age 50, or at least have the choice of doing a nice relaxing part-time job in my later years. Eventually I plan to move into the garden shed full-time.

I also do it because, after having being an intentionally terrible consumer for a few years, I've realised that buying more and more consumer products was not actually making me (or anyone) happy. This was an ironic realisation as I was formerly a product designer.

Neither of us is on an amazing salary - both decidedly average, in fact (admittedly we are DINKYs).

Here are some tightwaddin' highlights:

• For years we were housesitters instead of renting. We lived in a university town in NZ, which meant that the professors would often go on sabbatical for six months or so (because every other university is so far away). We were offered a three-month housesit, which led to another, and another. It culminated in a year's sit in a very grand five-bedroom house with a tennis court and a sea-and-mountains view. We didn't pay a penny in rent for nearly four years.
  
• Housesitting hasn't worked out back in the UK (I suppose since it's so easy to travel) but we can still make choices about where we live. We rent a very modest 1-bed flat that's within cycling/walking distance of our jobs. A friend of mine rents a 2-bed flat because he needs another bedroom for all the shit he doesn't use, and a garden to enjoy all the beautiful northern weather. He pays twice as much as we do, and we have a park literally on our (back)doorstep.
  
• Bangernomics. I drive a 15-year-old Ford Focus. I bought it for 600 quid, with 80,000 miles on it, from a man who had owned it since new. A lot of my co-workers lease their cars 'because new cars get better fuel economy'. My car gets 50 to the gallon. Maybe your car gets 60, but it costs you 400 a month to lease. How far are you driving to claw that back? All for the privilege of driving on the same shitty congested roads that I do.
  
• Holidays. My friend and his partner went to Iceland last year to do a 5-day hike. It cost him something daft like two grand. Iceland looks great and I'll visit one day, but Scotland's just as beautiful and our 5-day hiking trips cost maybe 40 quid in petrol plus a bit for food (and hiking food is cheap, because you can make your own flapjacks and dehydrated noodle soup). AirBnB is amazing. You could pay good money for a hotel in some European city and end up in some shit cafe where coffee is 14 quid a cup, or pay peanuts for an AirBnB which comes with a host who tells you where the best places are.
  
• Gadgets. I had my old Motorola smartphone for about 6 years before I lost it, and the fucker still didn't have any cracks on the screen. I replaced it last month for a Huawei something-or-other which is a fiver a month for more data than I can use. My colleague pays £20 a month because 'he wants to watch Youtube on the toilet'.
  
• Food. My friend and his wife spend £120 a week. Half on frozen meals and takeaways, and the other half he just throws in the bin. And he looks really unhealthy (spotty, overweight, breath so bad he leaves residue on the phone etc). We shop at Aldi and eat a lot of soups, stews, chilli, curries - all cooked up in big batches and frozen. Weekday dinners are as effortless as a shitty ready-meal. All this for maybe £40 a week, for both of us.
  
• Unexpected bonus - my family thinks I'm poor because I have an old car. This means there's always a new shirt or pair of socks waiting for me when I visit. So by saving money, I save even more money... amazing.
  
  

Reading this back it is clear I am frustrated by my peers. I am not doing this as a sanctimonious protest, though - I genuinely am a massive dirtbag. Anyone else out there? What are your reasons and goals?

Hard Yakka is all over NZ, it's good stuff. Still have a pair of their work trousers. Although I would say that Cactus is tougher than Hard Yakka...

For proper Aussie you need RM Williams everything, surely? Including an RM Williams sticker on the rear window of your sick 1993 Commodore ute.

I got my brother a genuine 100 trillion Zimbabwean dollar note off of ebay.

'Don't spend it at all once'
Can't wait to say that on Christmas day.

The FatMax folding knives are brilliant because you don't need any tools to swap the blade, or to get into the blade holder. The lock is good and they have a decent clip. They're ugly but if you (the indefinite you, not you personally) actually use your tools, rather than just taking meticulously-arranged photos of them to post online, you won't care.

You can remove the anodizing with fine sandpaper. It'll take a while if your hubs are intricate.

I did this to an old set of black ano cranks, and went up through the grades and polished to a mirror finish.

I used to work at a place that had a hydraulic press. It had an adjustable steel screw-in foot that was about two inches in diameter, for pressing small work. I overdid it trying to press a shape into a piece of metal and I bent the foot... a short cylinder of solid steel two inches in diameter, bent like a boomerang. I was scared to use it after that.

I think they might be for hiking rather than cycling, the way they are cut. I got some and for the money they're great. Bit thin for use as thermals but great active base layers.

This Christmas I am buying four or five expensive cheeses from Neal's Yard Dairy and one cheese from Aldi, and people have to guess which is the cheap one.

Yeah you've got the right idea. There are two attributes to compare - the fill power (e.g. 600 or 750, with bigger numbers being more fluffy or 'warmer') and fill weight, which is the actual amount of down stuffed into the jacket, in grams.

There are other features that make a jacket warmer, like a storm tube/draught tube (insulated flap over the main zip), insulated collar, insulated cuffs, draw cord around the waist etc.

Probably the biggest difference is whether the construction is baffled (little boxes of down between the outer and the lining, creating an even thickness of insulation) or 'sewn-through' whereby the outer is sewn directly to the lining and the down is stuffed into little pockets - economical to manufacture, but you get cold spots at the stitch lines because there is no insulation there.

Sorry I can't open the links so can't comment directly.

I have a thin belay-style down jacket (Chinese, very cheap and very light) for summer and a big fully-featured Macpac jacket for winter adventures. I got the Macpac jacket a size larger than usual so I can wear it over the light one, for when it's just that cold.

Chur bro. I'm working in Cairo of all places for a few weeks, but I'll measure me pot up when I'm back. Have a good trip.

^ yep that sounds all right, the Alpkit stuff seems to be getting a bit spendy these days too... I think my quilt was 45 quid but they're twice that now. Post some pictures when you're done!

Spotter I would love a bit of reflectix but I live oop north. I'll cover your postage, if you've got the time to post it - PM me.

Hmm perhaps our liners are different. Mine packs up into a pouch the size of an egg; the fabric's so thin I think the difference is negligible compared to half a dozen other factors e.g.
A few degrees warmer air temperature
A sunnier day so more latent heat in ground
The ground drying out
Less wind
Eating a fattier dinner (a big chunk of salami or one-serve pack of butter will keep you warm all night for very little packing weight/size)
Sunburn
Getting used to sleeping outside over the duration of a trip

Sorry, I try not to get too geeky about these things, but they do all make a difference in my experience.

If you want a smaller pack size have you tried a down quilt instead of a bag? I have an Alpkit Cloud Cover that has kept me warm enough on a couple of snowy butter-fuelled nights. Bit late for this trip but you are welcome to try it, in exchange for a bit of reflectix.

A silk liner will add fuck all, seriously.

For thermals the absolute best are polypropylene but they don't seem to be sold in the UK bizarrely. Helly Hansen do polypropylene base layers but they are quite thin, which might be perfect for small pack size. In terms of warmth, weight, and pack size, merino and polyester are about the same, in my opinion.

3mm closed-cell foam under yer puffy mat will add a lot of warmth, if you can find a sensible way of carrying it (assume you are on a bike).

I haven't been to Yosemite but I'll chew your ear off about NZ for hours. Why Auckland though? If you want the scenery an internal flight to Christchurch is the best stepping-stone.

Went up Moel Siabod in Snowdonia last weekend. Scrambly, peaky, boggy, then sheepy. No pictures because I'm a shit, sorry. Surprisingly it took less than three hours to get there, so I'm sure we'll be back.

I unexpectedly have a week's leave remaining and the only time I can take it is the week before Christmas.

Can anyone recommend an overnight or 3-day wild camp hike in the Lakes or Wales? Ice axe okay, prefer to stay away from anything that might require crampons.

Obviously there is a lot to be had in Scotland but I am loathed to drive 6 hours up to the highlands only to drive 14 hours down to Bournemouth where we are spending Christmas this year.

Yes for the trail runners. The damage is all from abrasion on the sides. They aren't designed for multi-day backpacking trips which are usually a bit scrambly, so I'm not complaining.

I do wear them probably 30-40 hours a month spring-autumn. Boots 15-25 hours a month in winter. At a guess.

fill the boots with water and a cap of nikwax or graingers breathable fabric cleaner

That's a good tip. Mine are goretex lined but this has almost certainly broken by now.