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That would be all sorts of problematic

I do wonder why we didn't buy him. Even if it means upsetting Wilshere, or having to juggle Ozil and Fab, it would have been better than giving Chelsea a world class midfielder with years of premier league experience.

Cycling up past Notting Hill, set off past the junction as the lights go green... hadn't rolled my trouser leg up enough, and ended up jamming them into the chainring, skidding to a halt in front of a bus, in the middle lane. Had to shuffle to the middle to try and unwind them, now sitting in the office with a rather fetching hole by my calf.

Have I missed the discussion about how a pigeon gave Ashley Young a very direct indicator of his opinion of this current united crop? I was just sad that RVP wasn't there to take it on.

Here's hoping for the little horse to stumble at the first hurdle. New teams can often surprise at this point in the season, before they give up and resign themselves to relegation or mid-table safety.

Everyone knows that someone riding into your rear wheel is the equivalent of a primary school playground punch. She just doesn't know how to express all the feels.

I wasn't able to log in from any device since the site went over to Microcosm - everytime I logged in, I was logged straight back out - that was a bit odd. All good now I think

Nope.. you forgot to capitalize each word in the sentence.

13 Bomb Shelters That Children Of Gaza Will Regret Sheltering In.

Do you mean the part where the road splits towards Fortune Green?

edit: If so, I've always thought those traffic lights could use a redesign - two sets, rather than one integrated one.

Still, my least favourite part of the Finchley road is the Finchley Road Station -> Swiss Cottage section, loads of buses pulling out, loads of chelsea tractors turning left up to Hampstead, and to cap it all, it ends in the free for all madness of the gyratory.

You always see those guys at the protests - probably worth remembering that the reason they're anti-zionist is that they believe when the Messiah comes, he's going to grant Israel to observant Jews - there isn't much clarity around what god is going to do to the people living there, but I imagine it won't be pleasant, given the documented track record. Bunch of nutjobs.

I'm trying to work out if you are being serious here.

No-one should ever have right to use rockets against another group of people. Whether Hamas, or Israel, or anyone else.

Sure there is intense provocation, but nonetheless using rockets is their choice. Just as it's Israel's choice to kill people, as they are doing, under the justification that Hamas are firing rockets at them.

Both are stupid choices, which extend the cycle of violence.

I believe eyebrows is being completely serious - and I understand where they're coming from. If you've been on the receiving end of a 70 year occupation, tens of thousands of deaths, massive ethnic cleansing and repeated throttling of attempts at resolution, then of course you feel that violence is justified.

However Israelis have been brought up with the holocaust as ever present (see the seriousness of the marking of Yom Ha'Shoah, the holocaust memorial day) and the narrative of all the arab states trying to drive plucky Israel into the sea. If you see the Palestinians as just an extension of an entire region who preaches hate against you, and a people who instead of targeting the military targets will fire missiles at schools, or blow up dinner parties to mark your holiest days, then of course you feel like anything can be justified to stop your children or grandparents being attacked.

but - this is where dialogue is key. If Israelis made the effort to understand and empathize with a downtrodden people who are persecuted by an occupying force, and discriminated against everywhere they've sought asylum/refuge and Palestinians could understand the trauma of a holocaust of which nearly a third of your entire people were wiped out and how Israel is not their colonial project, but a safe haven, then perhaps we could move towards peace. Too much blood has been spilled already. Northern Ireland, South Africa, Poland, India - not that they are situations with exact parallels, but they are examples of how dialogue and non-violent action have created a better situation.

I don't really feel there's anything to gain out of arguing whether or not the Palestinian people are an artificial construct, any more than the Swiss or Israelis are - it's indisputable that a large population, extending beyond the borders of West Bank/Gaza strip identify as Palestinian, and desire self-determination.

What's the end goal of that argument anyway? Say you convince people that Palestinians are just a make believe thing (unlike someone's British identity which I suppose you think is more real) - what difference should that make to negotiations?

Off topic... why are they not calling the Malaysian airliner "thing" a terror attack?

Maybe it's because it seems more like a horrendous mistake, by a group that thought it was shooting down a military target. I suppose a terrorist attack has to be motivated by a desire to strike fear into a group.

Palestinians did not even exist until they were "invented". Prior to 1967 they were "Arabs". Genodical Arab nationalism was not born 70 years ago but earlier. Its seeds are within Arab Nationalism that formed the Muslim Brotherhood in the mould of the European fascist movements. It filled the vacuum left by the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the move of the Turks culturally westwards---- dumping even the Arab Script for German. In the 1930s the MB gravitated towards the dream of a Caliphate and in 1936 declared war against secular Muslims and and ALL non-Muslims. Within this war it aligned itself with Germany. In WW-II the MB helped even recruit SS fighters. The start of the demonization, I think, I'd place a bit earlier.. in 1920 with the Nabi Musa Riots. After the riots trust between the Arabs and Jews eroded significantly. The Jaffa Riots of 1921 did not help.. And the Hebron Pogrom of 1929-- the Mulfti (a member of the Brotherhood) called for killing Jews following a dispute over the use of the Kotel (Wailing Wall)-- which ethnically cleansed the city of Jews until after the 6 Day War (at first the British evacuated the Jews "for their safety" and then refused to let them return to their homes. After the 1949 Armistice, Hebron was on the Jordan side so continued to be closed to Jews).

This is classic hasbara though - there's no point trying to de-legitimize either peoples' claim to the land, because the fact is that both populations believe it. There's no chance of progress if we're only looking backwards.

It's all a shame really. I spent a great summer on a Kibbutz in Northern Israel before travelling around Egypt and Jordan. Very friendly people in that part of the world but the hatred is so ingrained on both sides. What can you do when you are brought up to hate?

You can learn not to hate. My father's birthplace and upbringing are a direct result of displacement during WW2, and he's as hardine a zionist as they come. Perspective, education, and dialogue have all moved me away from the blinkered perspective I was brought up with.

It's not impossible - it's just difficult, the scars on both sides run deep, and it will take many generations to shift, but it can start in our lifetimes.

I'm not so sure. My impression (and it's based on relatively little, Nth-hand information) is that many Israeli's feel the need to appear strong and independent and that this is partly driven by a sense (justified or otherwise) of isolation and victimhood. If Israel were further isolated by the international community, the hard-line religious right would push for even more extreme action. Having said that, I'm amazed that anyone in the international community has any time for Israel at all given its past actions.

Just on a tangent - there's not really much in the way of morality in the international sphere. Ignoring the fact that almost no state would be considered 'moral' were they judged as an individual (that's without getting into the debate as to whether the state as a concept is moral), international politics is about expediency and self-interest, not doing the right thing.

^^ Agree completely, but:

This sort of language makes me uncomfortable, Israel is not a person. I assume you mean "those few who are in charge in Israel", but it could also be taken as "everyone who lives in Israel, collectively".

Yep - You're absolutely right - I'll edit it accordingly. It's shorthand, but especially in a debate as emotive as this one, it's important that one is entirely clear about their meaning.

I would add however, that as someone with a lot of Israelis/Zionists on their facebook feed as well as having spent a significant amount of time there, the populations is ever more hard line, isolationist and prejudiced against Arabs. Moreover, this right-wing coalition (particularly Lieberman and Bennet) is representative of their people. If the state justifies the suffering of the people of Gaza with the line "They elected Hamas" then the Israeli populace has to acknowledge its choice in electing a cabinet of hardline hawks.

I saw eyebrows' post yesterday and wanted to comment on the whole 'race' discussion - mainly that it's an invented concept, so there are only two factors at play - firstly, does a cultural grouping consider itself a race? Secondly, does a larger national/international community distinguish people of that race. From my point of view, it's a slightly redundant discussion - use 'group' and 'prejudice' instead of race and racism, and there's much less of an issue. I don't think there's any controversy in acknowledging that jews identify as a distinct group, nor that they've been discriminated against on the basis of that identity. I don't think it's productive to debate whether an Arab racial identity is any more legitimate than a jewish one.

On the more pressing issue of Israel and Palestine. Violence is not going to solve this. As one facebook post I saw went: "here comes operation same shit, different name". A repeat of the annual assault on Gaza, with the same outcomes. The only positive I've taken from this, is that diaspora jews, and moderates in the US (who previously swallowed the media line on Israel) are starting to realize quite how horrific the occupation is. http://www.jeremiahhaber.com/2014/07/when-palestinians-live-up-to-israels.html summed up how I felt about the situation.

The only issue I have, as an anti-zionist, deeply irreligious jew (hence my position on identity) is that while I would like to protest, and add my voice to people calling for Palestinian statehood and an end to the violence - I don't want to march alongside people who don't distinguish between jews and zionists, or are making anti-semitic remarks. Nor do I think that Israel is akin to the Nazis, or that it's in any way helpful to demonize them as such. Dialogue is key, and dehumanizing one another only furthers conflict.

It's all really fucked isn't it. Personally I'd love to see America tell Israel to get to fuck. They would shit their pants utterly. Not going to happen though.

There's a big problem with the AIPAC lobby in the US, and how afraid politicians are of criticizing Israel. That's part of the problem too - The Israeli state feels it has almost carte blanche in how it behaves. Completely isolating them would probably cause greater problems though - no matter how much it might feel just.

You're right, this is no place for existential musings. I'll go outside and wonder at the vastness of it all instead.

Sitting in a park with a couple of tins sounds lovely, would be keen.

In the Netherlands there's a countdown timer at a lot of crossings, but it's counting down how much time you have left to wait until the pedestrian light goes green. You're less likely to try and cross in a gap between traffic if you can see that's it's about to be your turn. This is basically the opposite of that - and it's a ridiculously hostile way to treat people in a city.

That makes so much more sense! Creating a general culture of everyone taking their turn (instead of every man/woman for themselves) would be better for all of us, but it seems like such a massive shift that it's unlikely happen.

but what's the point?

Sprint qualifying is on the BBC website right now.

So excited, thanks Yasi!

I can only comment as a professional shotgun caller, but I can say without a doubt that queuing in traffic jams is a horrendous pain. Also, petrol is not nearly as tasty a fuel as a chocolate bar, but that doesn't seem to work on cars.

Can someone remove the odd political discussion from the thread regarding the fatality in Richmond? http://www.lfgss.com/thread130542-2.html