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Has it all calmed down in here now? I hate it when I get too drawn in to an internet-based argument. It makes me feel soiled and degraded, and not even in a good way.

You know why posting links is fruitless, because those of you that havent' looked at it already, really are missing the point. 'You' live in a world that is begging for you to question how it works, and you as yet havent.

why would a link help? that boat is already sailing i'm afraid.

Please don't just assume that other people are unthinking idiots. You're walking through the world, looking at everyone except those who have the exact same set of beliefs and ideas as you, and assuming that they are all helpless fools. It's patronising and arrogant, and you miss out on a lot of interesting conversations by just writing people off. Maybe you need to broaden your mind to the fascinating wealth of knowledge and experience in the world. There's a lot of very clever people out there, actually doing all kinds of amazing, world-changing stuff, rather than just reading other people's fantasies on the internet.

Repeat ad nauseum.

And as Tynan said earlier thats just how it is.

If all of you are content to believe that a system of government, steered by a capitlist manifesto wouldn't want you to consume endlessly, and wouldn't ever lie to you? Tthen please completely ignore the ramblings of this idiot.
You are obviously aware of the 'facts' that our totally infallible and patently honest government provides, and belive them to be true.
Regardless of free energy that is what the crux of this discussion was about, would the goverment lie to you.
And they do, all the time, about everything.
Any one with a brain that was in use would tell you the same.

Now, explain freedom to me again? Is that to be fully aware of all the information? that which is considered erroneous and that considered by the media to be the 'truth'

I would have though it far harder to ruffle the feathers of such a free thinking souls...wow.

Fuck's sake... I've been trying to argue in a polite and reasonable way about this, but you're not actually responding to anything anyone says. It's like punching away at a sack of potatoes. I'm off to play Tummy Ache with my kids.

I argued on here, went for a ride, came back and argued some more.

Your education is as flawed as my 'delusions'.

No, it's not. People who are educated in the normal educational systems of the western world invented and developed the computer you're sat in front of, the bike you ride, the controller for your central heating system (and the super-efficient condensing combi-boiler it controls, if you've got one). Scientists and physicists aren't government-controlled drones, toeing the party line and never thinking for themselves. They're sharp, clever, free-thinking people with access to loads of resources and information. In a hundred years, no-one who believes that Tesla invented free energy machines (and lots of people have believed that) has ever managed to build one. So who's knowledge and beliefs are more powerful?

some nut thought it was witchcraft?

Maybe, but this is what a Tesla coil does when you power it up:

and he was building much bigger ones, with presumably very little by way of health and safety stuff going on... I wouldn't have given him fire insurance.

Just come back from a quick ride and while I was trundling along I remembered this:

Tesla had devised an electrical 'system' that lit a flourescent tube (also his idea) 10 miles from new york with no wires, that was self perpetuating once started. It used a 'wave' of electricity that was in empathy with the earth vibrating at 440hz, and not the 50hz that will presently kill you. (it's more complicated than that however that is the general jist. Upon discovering that this system would be 'free' and wouldn't require literally billions of tonnes of copper, Teslas workshops mysteriously burnt down.

The dude was experimenting with huge coils that wound up voltages well into the tens of thousands. He was also extremely interested in ways to transmit that power across space without wires. It's just possible that there's a more straightforward reason why his workshop burned down.

Just what have you been told, and how much of it is full of holes?

The problem with capitalism is that is solely interested in making money, end of discussion.

Yes - see my previous post. Capitalism is a philosophy, not an economic system. It's the belief that the point of life for individuals and organisations is to acquire the biggest pile of money possible. Yes, people are ruthless and greedy in the pursuit of that aim.No, I don't like it either. But there's no magic bullet. I know lots of people who are living genuinely alternative lives with some success, self-sufficient in energy and food to a large extent, shunning greed and waste as much as possible. They don't have magic energy boxes, they just work really hard.

Fine thanks, it has yet to be used though will replace the one on the mixte.

And all of you that mock.

Please feel free. I don't really mind if you enjoy living under the yoke, as it seems you are all quite comfortable and conditioned to believe just what you are told.

Get on with it.

The initial discussion was based around freedom, you being free to live like sheep, And others free to live as idiots.

I'm sure you are all quite happy, if ignorance is bliss.........baah.

Excuse me, but I think you're just believing what you've been told. I'll bet you haven't actually seen a free energy machine, you've read about it in a book or on the internet.

Yes, I do. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of free markets. But markets are only free because they are protected by active governments - at a sophisticated level we need to protect against copyright infringement, complex fraud and 'passing off', unsafe ingredients in food and medicines etc; at a more basic level, we need to protect against straightforward protection rackets, intimidation of competitors, violence against workforces and so on. Because we want to trade safely, freely and efficiently, we organise our societies around accountable systems of law and government.
Capitalism is a philosophy, not an economic system. A capitalist believes that the fundamental object of all individuals and organisations is to build up as much capital as possible. If that's your objective, then clearly you'd get there quicker if you were able to circumvent some of the inconvenient legal and moral stuff that stops you from acquiring more money faster. See Enron, the 'robber baron' era of US history and maybe the activities of oil companies in Nigeria right now for some examples.

http://www.pbase.com/findyourwave/image/70358938
By the lovely Greg Martin from his website www.findyourwave.co.uk
I think he's editing Wavelength now.

And while I'm here... What right-wingers on both sides of the Atlantic don't seem to grasp is that democratic government is what creates freedom. They talk as if freedom means the absence of government. The opposite is true: the absence of government is feudalistic bullying, all power to the strongest and enslave the weak. We invented government so that we could extend freedom to everybody, not just the wealthy and powerful. And that goes for the free market, too. Free markets and strong democratic government go hand in hand, and capitalism is the enemy of both. Capitalism is just feudalism in a suit - capitalists crave monopolies, unfair advantages and an unfree workforce.

Watch out with that fly algaric - it's pretty harsh stuff. The Sami reindeer herders are quite into it, their shamen use it for trippy rituals. But they have a very special way of preparing it. The reindeer like it too, so the shamen follows them while their grazing on it, then catches and drinks their piss. Enough of the active ingredients make it through, but the reindeer's livers take the toxic hit, leaving it much safer for human consumption. True story. Do not try this at home...

The truth behind this farce, is this, there is 'free energy' it is possible to over unify.

However, If the layman were to lay his hands upon a device the size of a kick drum, that emitted no pollution, no noise, required no fuel and gave you 30kw of power at will...

The whole of the worlds societal infrastructure would collapse over night, totally.

Ok, let's start there with the heated yet ultimately gentlemanly debate. Show me an example of a device that gives out more energy than you put in. The isn't one, nor (I'd be willing to bet) will there ever be, not because of a government conspiracy, but because that seems to be the way that the universe is put together. My point is that if you start the day off by believing in that kind of thing on faith - and it has to be on faith, because there's no evidence - then you leave yourself open to building up a whole structure of erroneous thought on top of that one false belief.
A Faraday Cage is a room lined with conducting material - just the wires wouldn't do it. It shields the contents from external static or electromagnetic fields.
Whenever one single person seems to achieve scientific results that no-one else can replicate (eg the things that are attributed to Tesla by contemporary enthusiasts) warning bells should sound in the mind of scientifically-minded observers. If an effect is real, it can be replicated.

If that argument was even half as clear as it should be...

The 'world wide global conspiracy' that claims we are all fighting for oil and money and and and and andand ...

Isn't it's a war to maintain control over the masses using a credit system to buy energy...ie heat and light, mobility...etcetera....

The truth behind this farce, is this, there is 'free energy' it is possible to over unify.

However, If the layman were to lay his hands upon a device the size of a kick drum, that emitted no pollution, no noise, required no fuel and gave you 30kw of power at will...

The whole of the worlds societal infrastructure would collapse over night, totally.

Absolute Power corrupts absolutely, so claiming that a 'conspiracy' is just that, is to not see the huge stinking puss filled boil on the face of humanity.

The whole fucking system stinks, where a two dollar tin of baby milk is considered more valuable than the child it feeds, and that a tree is worth more as a match than an ecosystem.
The world is still controlled and policed under an authority that has no interest whatsoever in the protection of the human, moreover it only exists to maintain the indefatigable and wholesale circus of power which currently exists.

It will not stop until all of the worlds valuable life systems are corrupted to the point of extinction. Those that cry 'conspiracy', please look first at the considerable works of Tesla, Schauberger, Reich, to name a handful of hundreds of Scientists that were muzzled and sometimes killed to maintain this charade. Many people that could have changed the future for the betterment of millions, however were denied. Tesla had devised an electrical 'system' that lit a flourescent tube (also his idea) 10 miles from new york with no wires, that was self perpetuating once started. It used a 'wave' of electricity that was in empathy with the earth vibrating at 440hz, and not the 50hz that will presently kill you. (it's more complicated than that however that is the general jist. Upon discovering that this system would be 'free' and wouldn't require literally billions of tonnes of copper, Teslas workshops mysteriously burnt down.
Tesla was the true inventor of 'Electricity' and for the betterment of man kind sold his rights to control for 1 dollar.

Any discussion regarding freedom must first look at these key points, until a war on truth is won, a war concerning freedom is unable to begin.

With absolutely all due respect, most people who go down that line of thinking end up wearing tinfoil hats and turning their bedrooms into Faraday Cages.

Does 'instrumental music' include... ahem ... European jazz?
YouTube- Tomasz Stanko Quartet - "Suspended Variation II" (2004)

YouTube- EST - Strange Place For Snow

Here's one for the boatbuilders - Phil Bolger's extraordinary AS29 design, conceived as cheap, mobile housing for a single person:
http://www.leow.de/
It's basically a big plywood box, but shaped so cunningly that it functions as a fast, seaworthy yacht. Maybe six month's work for a competent carpenter gets you a comfortable mobile home. Materials - maybe £20k plus a bit more for gear if you actually want to cruise it properly.
This is THE site for self-builders with green leanings: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/
Lots of extremely helpful, knowledgable people there.
I don't think houses are a good buy as an investment, although obviously they're useful to live in. Over the last ten years, the government has deliberately engineered massive increases in house prices to boost the financial services sector. Higher prices=more money paid out on mortgages, either your own or your landlords=more money being pumped through the financial sector. Unfortunately they pissed it all up the wall in a spectacular display on incompetence. I can't see how prices can be sustained at current levels in the long term.

I've never driven a lorry before, but I gather that he didn't really feel it, if he did, then he'd think it's just the road a little bumpy.

Most big modern lorry cabs ride on their own suspension, separated from the movement of the chassis. Some of them are really soft - they sort of float about up there. I can imagine that you might not feel it. Slippery wet roads, too - and there might not have been that much of an impact anyway. It could have happened at very low speed in heavy traffic when the HGV driver was looking off into the distance forward at lights, signs or whatever.
Is there a driver in the car? Horn not working? No-one around them on the road thought to honk or flash lights? No oncoming HGV flashing?

sorry to interrupt but did the dumplings recipe get posted
i love dumplings

Dumplings are a piece of piss - half fat to self-raising flour by weight, vegetable suet is the best fat but maybe anything would do. Pinch of salt, mix into a sticky dough with water. Float table-tennis-ball-sized blobs on top of your (nearly-cooked) stew with gaps in-between (they swell right up), turn it down as low as it will go, lid on and don't touch it for exactly 20 mins - don't even lift the lid to have a peek. Bingo! You can put some chopped herbs or whatever in the mix if you like.
Warning, though - vegetable suet turns absolutely fucking rank if it's left in the cupboard for too long - check the sell-by date and don't just sniff it, it can smell ok but taste truly disgusting.

Yeah, to be honest I'm hoping to stay away from the stock market unless I get something really good. Preferably looking for something a bit safer.

I must admit, I don't ever invest any money in anything, really. Pay off the mortgage, feed the kids, buy beer and whatever my current obsession is - bikes or boats or building stuff... If I've got any spare money it's a sign that I'm working too many hours.

They work harder and take better advantage of opportunities that present themselves than you do?

Or they're just a little bit older than you? I'm 40 and I bought my first house for £40k in 1996 - worth maybe £170k now. I've never earned that much or been given any great amount, I just rode the government-engineered house price boom upwards. If house prices back then were what they are now, I'd probably never get to own a house.
On cars - I've found that however old or new a car is, they always seem to cost me about £1000 a year between depreciation and maintenance. Newer cars depreciate more but need less maintenance; older ones the other way around. Always seems to add up to about a grand, for some reason.

You say oil supply, so could it be worth just holding it in oil for the time being? It's just been floating around 5 - 8p for the last few months and has only ever hit a high of 14p, so it would appear that they're pretty minor players.

Mmm... I don't know enough about the oil world to comment. I'd guess that lots of money will be made within the oil industry, but exactly who by is harder to say. I'd be wary of any new investment opportunities like the Falklands thing, myself. People always big up the new fields to bring the money in to start drilling. Once they start, things don't always work out quite as profitable as they thought. Offshore drilling in the Southern Oceans must be a pretty costly proposition.

For green / energy investments...
Landfills could be good over the next ten years - there's some interesting action going on in plastics recycling that, combined with ever-rising oil prices, are going to make landfills look more like plastic mines.
Anything involving insulation is good too. Big changes are going to come in building regs. External insulation products for houses are going to be very big, as is triple glazing.
There will be big money in oil supply but not in oil-consuming goods, so no car companies or heavily energy-intensive products.
Tidal generation is the big one coming for the UK renewables market. We've got almost the biggest, fastest tides in the world, pushing through endless straits and suchlike, and almost no tidal power generation. Onshore wind - not so much, given the land use issues.

If your elbow does happen to stop the end of a pavement-rider's handlebars, it might teach the cyclist that they're actually the vulnerable one in the situation.

The dancers are just amazing, but what I really love is the way the musicians pick up the groove and build it up and up - so beautifully sophisticated and effortless. There's a line in a biography of Billie Holiday about "the lost art of rhythm guitar", meaning the four-to-a-bar acoustic guitar style of pre-electric jazz, and watching that film you can see what they mean.