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Having now given up on Goldtec, I've dismantled the wheel and had a really good look at it. It's caused by galvanic corrosion between the s/s spokes and the alloy shell. On the LHS, the outside spokes have really eaten into the shell, spalling off the black coating, and it was about to fall apart in several places. On the RHS, the oil spatter has protected it so (after wiping off the sludge) there is barely any corrosion, the coating is largely intact, and the spokes haven't made much of an impression on the flange at all.
No-one now makes a 135mm hub with 36 holes and a wide enough chainline for an MTB, so I'm going to have to fit something different or buy a 32h rim and new spokes :-(
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Tangential lacing is no guarantee against cracked flanges, unfortunately, although radial lacing is far worse.
If you're going to lace radially without a maker's guarantee, you need a forged hub shell and the maximum amount of metal between the spokes. This means a 28 hole hub is better than a 36 hole hub for this particular purpose, and l/f hubs are better than s/f. I would say you are reasonably safe with a Shimano hub, since these are forged (at least the reasonable quality ones are).
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A question about Q-factor. If you put a straight edge on the back of the chainring, what is the distance between the ring and the back of the pedal eye? Most cranks are about 15-20mm; I need a crank where it's about 25mm. Sugino XD is too narrow as is TA Alize Track (I've measured them both).
It's to avoid hitting the chainstays on an unusual frame
ok, the Brompton ;-)
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Should be OK, Harley Davidson have had bands instead of chains for years, and even you don't put out as much torques as a Harley.
You should produce considerably more torque than a stock Harley, which is in the 100Nm range. My body weight (with shoes etc) on a 165mm crank is about 130Nm and I can probably get that up to over 150Nm by pulling on the bars.
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Thanks. I've actually managed to find an answer; the Sugino XDs I first tried were the triple forging (from Hubjub) and fouled the cup without even tightening the crankbolt. Then I tried the other XDs from my Inbred. These are the double forging and they fit with clearance, even when the bolt is mullered down hard.
So...I reckon most Sugino single or double cranks are OK.
Why use the 103mm? It weighs 148g (claimed 145g, but I trust my scales). That's half the weight of a UN54!
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They are Sugino XD but there are two different types of XD!
One is a triple crank. It gives a chainline of 46-47mm (Goldtec friendly) with a cheapy 107mm UN54 BB and the ring on the inside of the spider. Hubjub sell these.
The other is a double crank. It gives a similar chainline with the ring on the outside of the spider (aesthetically nicer).
I bought a pair of these (in black) from the eBay seller. They took an age to be delivered, but I was very happy with them because they turned out to be the double version, and it looks much better with the ring on the outside.
Another oddity is that the triple will NOT fit a TA 103mm BB. The double will.
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It's way lighter than the Sugino 103mm and is JIS taper....BUT....most cranks bottom out on the cups, because they have shallow recesses. TA Alize cranks will fit but are no longer available, at least not that I can find, and the other TA cranks are silly prices. Do any of the Sugino cranks fit, like the Messenger? Is anyone running this BB?
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***Cranks + BB Type + Rear Hub + Cog
***(with any dimensions of spindles/chainlines)
Campagnolo:
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Record Pista + Royce + EAI = kowalski
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Record 111mm (80's) + Phil + Phil = tristoo
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Centaur 111mm + Phil Hub + Phil Cog = Sparky's Fuji
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Centaur 111mm + Suzue Promax SB + EAI superstar = oddsock
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Athena + Phils (Hub and cog) (+ Fizik bar tape) = Jonny
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Pista + Campag Pista = Platini
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Record + Royce + eai = briankwan
Campagnolo Pista '81 + Campag 109 + Record LF hubs+ Phil cog = Skully
Campagnolo Pista + Campag + Ambrosio + Phil Wood = Sano
Campagnolo Pista + Specialities TA + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = VelocityBoy
Campagnolo Pista + Campag + Araya + Phil Wood = 50/14
Campagnolo PIsta + Campag Veloce 111mm + System-EX + Condor = hladik
Campag Record Pista - Campag Centaur 111mm - Campag Record Pista - Phil Wood - the-smiling-buddha
Campag Record Pista + Record pista + Record Pista + Dura ace = gizmond
Campag Record Pista + Token tiramic 111mm + Ambrosio + Phil Wood + VO sewn-on elkhide= Smallfurry (BB asymmetric, buggerit)
Campag Record Pista + Phil Wood BRS10S 110.5 + Phil Wood + EAI = Jonesy
Campag Record Pista + Campag Centaur 111mm + Dura Ace Hb7600 + Dura Ace = Cornelius Blackfoot
Campagnolo Record Pista+Campagnolo Centaur 111mm+Miche Primato+Condor CNC=Cosmonaut
Campagnolo Record Pista+Stronglight 110 ISO+Campag Record Road screw on with large spacer swapped from DS to NDS+Trialtech Sport=Mitre_Tester
Campagnolo Record Pista + Campag Centaur 111mm + Royce + On-One (& others) = BMMF
Campagnolo Record + miche 111mm + Mack + Phil Wood = drøn
Campagnolo Pista + Campag Record Pista + Campag Record Pista + EAI = entwidomela
Campagnolo Chorus (Goldtec 42t chainring) + Campag ? + Campag Record Pista + BLB (+sram) = upstart
Campag Super Record Pista + Record Pista + Dura Ace 7600 HF + Condor = M-X
Campagnolo Record Pista + Campagnolo Centaur 111mm + Formula + Phil Wood = arantrek
Campag Racord Pista +Campag Centuar 111m + On One + Condor = Sainsburys EdDotek:
Dotek cheapy + Campag Mirage + Formula + Dura-Ace = fc9k
Dotek FG-PRO6-170 + BBUN26 68x113mm + OnOne small flange double fixed hub + Miche1/8sprocket = xroads (42mm chainline with chainring on inner side of spider, chainguard on outer side)Dura-Ace:
Dura-Ace + Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + EAI = hassanr
Dura-Ace 7600 + Sugino 75 + Dura Ace + Surly = Dayno
Dura-Ace + UN72/110mm + Goldtec + EAI Superstar = Object
Dura-Ace + UN53/107mm + Dura Ace+Dura Ace= MA3K
Dura-Ace + UN54/107mm + Dura Ace + Phil = Shinscar
Dura-Ace + Dura-Ace BB-7610 + Dura-Ace 7600 + EAI = flickwg
Dura-Ace 7600 + UN54/107mm + Novatec + some shit = Ant
Dura-Ace FC7710 + Dura Ace BB7710 (109.5) + Dura Ace HB7600 + Dura Ace 1/8 = RPM dura-fuckin-ace.
Dura-Ace all the way baby... = dovoneil
Dura-Ace FC7710 + Dura Ace BB7710 + Dura Ace HB7600 + EAI = town
Dura-Ace Old school 151 + UN54+ Sys Ex + On One= Eyebrows perfect (dangermouse)
Dura-Ace + UN54 110 + Dura-Ace + Dura-Ace = Charco
Dura-Ace + Stronglight JP400 + Phil + Andel = euan
Dura-Ace 7710 + Sugino 75 chainring + Dura-Ace 7700 109.5mm BB + Dura-Ace 7600 hub + Sugino Sprocket = Dammit
Dura Ace 7600 + Campag Veloce 115.5 + Level (45mm chainline) = M-X
Dura Ace 7600 + Dura Ace 7610 (109mm) + Royce + EAI = woolsMiche:
Miche Primato + Campagnolo 111mm + Miche hub + EAI = Well, is it.
Miche + Miche +Miche + Andel + Miche = fixedfreak (max)
Miche + Campag Record 111mm + Goldtec + EAI = MrSmith
Miche + campag centaur 111mm + formula + surly (~fred)
Miche + Miche + Velosteel coaster = gizmond
Miche + Campag Record 109mm + Phil + Phil = gizmond
Miche + Miche + Navigator Pista + EAI = gizmond also
Miche + Sugino + Miche + EAI = Shinscar (surly)
Miche Primato Pista + Shimano UN54/110mm + Formula + Dura Ace = CHUG_IT
MIche Primato Pista + Miche + On-One + EAI = ummar01
Miche (Condor-branded) + Miche 107mm (cups adjusted 2mm towards drivechain) + Goldtec + EAI 1/8" = eeehhhh {46mm chainline}
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche 107mm + Goldtec + Condor = Buddha Fingaz
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche 107mm + Miche + Miche = Buddha Fingaz
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche 107mm + Condor(IRO) + Surly = edscoble
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche + Miche + Miche = Hovis Brown
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche + Miche + Miche Pista = 50/14
Miche Primato Advanced + Shimano UN53/107mm + Condor Goldtec + EAI = hamster
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche 107mm + Mavic 520 Piste + Roselli = entwidomela
Miche Advanced + Miche + Gran Compe + DA = VED
Miche Advanced + Miche + phil wood + DA = VEDMiche Advanced + Miche + Dia Compe Grand Compe + EAI = gizmond
Miche Advanced + Campagnolo Athena adjustable 111mm + Dia Compe Gran Compe + Miche Primato = a|s (although my driveside chainstay is out of whack by 5mm or so)
Miche Primato Advanced + fyxomantosis chainring 49t + royce titanium + phil wood 16t + fizik = germanmarc
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche 107mm + system ex + Andel = sorethroat
Miche Primato Advanced + Miche 107mm + zenith/formula/systemex + velo solo = velo libre
Miche Primato Advanced + Shimano Un54 + GoldTec + EAI = Clockwork_KillaStronglight:
Stronglight + UN53/107mm + Sys-X + Formula= MA3K
Stronglight + Shimano UN73/110mm + SystemEx + EAI -2mm = mr_tom
Stronglight + Stronglight + SystemEx + Tranzmission = BringMeMyFix
Stronglight + UN72/107mm + Miche + EAI = Richard Cheese (all 3/32)
Stronglight + Shitmano UN54/118mm + Goldtec + Surly/EAI (on 130mm dropouts for 50mm chainline, Pomino, Genesis singlespeed etc..)= RPM
Stronglight + Sugino / 103mm + Phil Wood + Phil Wood 1/8" = Superprecise
Stronglight 2000 + Stronglight JP400 / 107mm JIS + Phil Wood + Phil Wood 1/8" (42mm chainline) = Spiny
Stronglight 2000 + Stronglight JP400 / 107mm JIS + Goldtec + Condor = lightindustrialunitSugino 75:
Sugino 75 + Miche + Condor (non Goldtec) + Dura Ace = brett
Sugino 75 + Miche + Phil Wood = adoubletap
Sugino 75 + Miche + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = d.mac ( if it ever comes back from Condor....)
Sugino 75 + Miche + Campag + DA = gizmond
Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = Cornelius Blackfoot
Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = Wapping Warrior
Sugino 75 + Phil 110.5mm + Phil + EAI Superstar = Object
Sugino 75 + Phil 110.5mm + Goldtech + Phil Wood = Dancing James
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Goldtec + Surly = Muleboy
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Goldtec + EAI = dogsballs
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Goldtec + EAI= 31t®um
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Goldtec + EAI = Broker
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Phil Wood + Phil Wood= adoubletap + fred
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Phil Wood + Phil Wood= biles
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = maxcrowe
Sugino 75 + Campag Veloce 111mm + Phil Wood + EAI = jaygee
Sugino 75 + Campag Veloce 111mm + Formula + Dura Ace = TooTallTim
Sugino 75 + Hatta R9400 + ShimanoHB7600 + EAI superstar cog = Tynan
Sugino 75 + Hatta R9400 + ShimanoHB7600 + Dura-ace= Build
Sugino 75 + Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + EAI = mr_tom
Sugino 75 + Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + Surly = Dannoleeed
Sugino 75 + Dura Ace + Condor Goldtec + Condor CNC = Mouse
Sugino 75 + Shimano + Condor Goldtec + EAI Superstar = Nimhbus
Sugino 75 + Hatta R9400 (109mm) + Campagnolo C.Record + Sugino Gigas = moose76
Sugino 75 + Dura Ace (109mm) + Phil Wood + EAI regular (euro asia imports) = moose76
Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = shootthebreeze
Sugino 75 + Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = works
Sugino 75 + Sugino 75 + Dura Ace + EAI Superstar = jaygee
Sugino 75 + Royce 103mm JIS + Royce + EAI Superstar = welpeur
Sugino 75 + Stronglight + Phil Wood + Dura Ace (+ cut down odyssey grips) = jonny
Sugino 75 + Hatta R9400 (109mm) + Dura Ace + EAI = mikec
Sugino 75 + Campag Centaur 111mm + Goldtec + EAI = jon_a
Sugino 75 + miche 107mm + miche primato + crap 3/32 = Gareth_lindsay
Sugino 75 + Sugino 75 + Mavic Ellipse + Dura Ace = tick.tick.tick
Sugino 75 + Phil Wood + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = dasmillerSugino Messenger/RD:
Sugino Messenger + Sugino 103mm + Phil Wood + EAI = mattty
Sugino Messenger + Phil wood (103 jis) + phil wood + phil wood = chris crash
Sugino Messenger + Shimano + Ambrosio + Condor = Shinscar (clown)
Sugino Messenger + Sugino/103mm + Goldtec + DA = VED (perfect)
Sugino Messenger + Sugino + Hope track + EAI = Aleksi
Sugino Messenger + Shimano + Halo + Shimano dura ace = IvandaterribleSugino Super Mighty + Sugino 109 + Dura Ace + Phil Wood = Dayno
Sugino RD + Sugino + Ambrosio + Miche = asm } both are pretty much spot on
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + Sys-X + Dura Ace = MA3K
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + SJS (SystemEx et al) + Dura Ace/Andel = ChrisNW {44 front, 42 rear}
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + Halo + Halo = Hotwls
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + OnOne + OnOne = -=Mike=-
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + Surly O.L.D. + Surly/Miche/Dicta = ShannonBall
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + OnOne + Dura Ace = Pifko
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm+ Sys Ex + Miche = Eightball69
Sugino RD + UN53/107mm + Condor Goldtec + EAI= hamster
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + Formula track hub +Miche sprocket (Miche lockring will no fit this hub) = gtvlusso
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm+ Gran Compe + Token/Andel = Balki
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + Gran Compe + Velo Solo = Rascal
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + Phil Wood + EAI = Rascal
Sugino RD (On inside ring) + Sugino/103mm+ Formula + Surly = entwidomela
Sugino RD + Sugino/103mm + OnOne + Andel = welpeur
Sugino RD (on inside ring) + Shimano UN54 107mm + Goldtec + Condor = Buddha FingazMisc.:
Andel + Shimano UN54 110mm + Forumla + EAI = Jaimes
Andel/BLB + Sugino 103mm + zenith/formula + surly = dinosaur
Camapgnolo road double (Croce D'Aune) + 111mm ACH + Goldtec + Miche or On One or Surly or EAI 3/32nd = AlexB
Campagnolo Double + Shimano + Formula + DA = Tobyprice
Campagnolo Record time trial + FAG Nadax + SJS + Beans Cycles = BlueQuinn
Campagnolo Veloce Double + Campag Veloce + SystemEx = Hovis Brown
Campagnolo Veloce Triple + Campag Veloce + Goldtec + Tranzmission = BringMeMyFix
Campag Veloce UT+Record UT+Mavic Ellipse+Phil Wood/EAI Gold Medal=Mitre_Tester
FSA Carbon Track Pro + FSA Platinum Pro BB + Mack Double Fixed Track Hub + DA Track Cog + KMC Superlight Chain = Dov
FSA Carbon Track Pro (new style) + FSA BB + profile + Miche pro = fred
FSA Vero + 110mm cheapo cartridge + Dura-Ace/SurlyFixer/Shimano LX = N3lson
FSA Vero + Shimano UN54 110mm + System EX + On-One = Buddha Fingaz
FSA Vero+Shimano UN54+Miche Pistard+Deda=east end images
FSA Vero+Gebhardt 1/8 CR+Sugino 103 BB+Formula Hub+Condor Cog = hoonz
FSA Vigorelli + ISIS BB of indeterminate width + Phil + Condor = hippynice
Gipiemme Pista + Campag 111mm + Mavic + Dura-Ace (also Goldtec + Miche) = ondine
Gusset Pygmy 853 (gusset chainwheel) + Gusset Euro bb (145mm spindle) + Goldtec + EAI = hassanr
Mavic Fluted Road Double (Inner Ring Lip Filed Off) + Campagnolo Chorus 102mm BB + Phil Wood + Phil Wood = Pistoffski
Middleburn RS1+ Shimano XT 68 113mm + White Bros Eno + Surly/ Miche = tommid
Mighty (£15 ebay) + Shimano un54 122.5mm + sjsc hub+ sjsc cog = ile
Nervar + Tange 115mm + Zenith + Surly (3/32" chain) = gwEm
Ofmega 49t + Campag + Miche + DA = Tobyprice
Ofmega 52 tooth + Shimano/110mm Italian thrd + Formula + Surly = P!MP(somehow it works)
Pake + UN54 107mm + SJS/Formula + Miche = Frankie_j
Paul + Campag Centaur 111mm + Goldtec + Surly = yorkiefix
Paul + Campag Centaur 111mm + paul + phil = flickwg, nosferatu BIG UP PAUL COMP
Paul Comp + Phil Wood BRS10S 110.5mm + Paul Comp + Surly = Jonesy
Paul + Campag ? 111mm +Gran Compe + EAI = MatP
Profil Race Cranks with Gusset Chainring, Profile Euro BB, Philwood, Philwood = Object
RPM + Shimano UN54/110mm + Condor (non-Goldtec) + Condor = Brett
Shimano 600 + UN54/110mm + Goldtec 126mm track hub + 3/32 EAI = Prime heretic
Shimano 600 Road Double + Shimano 107mm + System Ex + a cog (possibly) = hippy TI Raleigh
Shimano 600 road double(gebhardt chainring) + Shimano 107mm + Systemex +cheapy cog = BrianClose
Shimano sora double + Prestine threadless 110.5 + on-one dble fixed + on one = Bernhard (42mm I think)
Shimano Sora (Double - Inside mounted chainring) + Shimano UN54/107mm + Novatech Hubs + Miche = Pifko
Shimano 105 (Double - inside mounted chainring) + 105 Hollowtech + Formula + Shimano BMX freewheel = ctznsmith
Shimano 105 (Double - inside mounted chainring) + Shimano UN54/110mm + Suzue Basic + Ambrosio = Specialist
Shimano 105 (Double - outside mounted chainring) + Shimano UN72/ 107mm + Shimano XT front disc hub (from Velosolo) spaced to 120mm undished + 5mm spacers behind cog + Velosolo bolt on cog = welpeur
Shimano Exage EX300 double (ring on outer side)+ Shimano un 71 113mm + Formula=ile
Shimano Nexus NX60+Campagnolo+Campagnolo Record Pista+Campagnolo Record Pista(+Silva)=east end images
SRAM S300 1.1 + GXP BB cups + 'Raleigh Build' Crap Generic Hub on Mach 1 Omega factory build junk + EAI = Ninjaslim
SR Apex 165 (118bcd) + Shimano UN54/115mm + System Ex (Condor) + Dura-Ace = cold blow
SR Apex 170 (144bcd) (with Chainring inside spider) + YST threadless 119mm BB + On-One +Surly = A EF
SR Sakae + Shimano UN54/118mm + SJS (SystemEx et al) + Andel = ChrisNW {42mm}
Sugino XD silver TRIPLE + UN54/107mm + Dura-Ace 1/8" + Goldtec = rogerzilla (46.5mm, chainring on inside of crank)
Sugino XD black DOUBLE + UN54/107mm + Dura-Ace 1/8" + Goldtec = rogerzilla (46.5mm, chainring on OUTSIDE of crank this time)
SR Sakae Apex + Campagnolo Veloce + Miche + Dura Ace (+ macneil traveler grips) = Joao+BCN
Sugino Langster Speciales + Sugino 103mm + System Ex + Ye Olde Englishe Coge = hippymess
Sugino Maxy + 3SB (121.5mm asymmetric) cup&cone + Miche + EAI = welpeur
Sugino Super Maxy + Tange 115mm (with 1mm BB Spacer) + Zenith (same as Formula etc) + Surly = A EF
Suntour Superbe Pro + Phil 108mm JIS + Dura Ace = tick.tick.tick
TA + TA(314) + Campag + Miche = Fruitbat
TA Alize Piste+Stronglight 110 ISO+Goldtec+Miche=Mitre_Tester
Truvativ + (??) stock bianchi pista + phil wood + EAI = asm }
Truvativ Omnium + Truativ GXP External BB cups + On-One Hubs + Miche/Dura-Ace = Pifko
Truvativ Omnium + Truativ GXP External BB cups + Condor Uno + Miche/Dura-Ace = Pifko
Truvativ Omnium+Truvativ GXP+Navigator Pista+Miche=Mitre_Tester's sister-in-law
Truativ Omnium + Truativ GXP + Bontrager Aeolus 5.0+Dura Ace = Sainsburys Ed
White Industries + Phil + Milwaukee(Ben's) + EAI = Archi Pelago
White Industries + Phil 111mm + White Industries + White Industries = Rod Munch
White Industries + Phil 111mm+ LeVeL 135 + LeVeL = Eyebrows 47mm chainline
White Industries + Shimano/110mm + Phils + White Industries = big daddy wayne
Zeus Pista (circa 80's) + Campag Pista 109mm + Formula + Miche = tristooTurns out there are two types of Sugino XD. The double type (from eBay) gives a narrower chainline, and is generally more satisfactory, than the triple type sold by Hubjub.
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The QR doesn't care whether it's being used on a fixie or a geared bike EXCEPT that the chain tension (which is what causes axle creep) is inversely proportional to the number of teeth on your rear sprocket for a given wheel size. So if you're running 38 x 14 like me, the chain tension is pretty high when climbing, compared to a geared bike where you might have a 25 on the back. With the usual "road bike" 48 x 18, it's much of a muchness.
What I don't know, because I've never tried it, is how easy it is to tension the chain using a QR hub. Probably easier than with bolts or nuts.
On some hubs, like the Fuji one I've just done, the bearings really don't want to come out because tolerances are tight and/or they've been there for a long time and a bit of corrosion has made them stick. Heating up the hub makes it a lot easier - about 120 deg C in an oven will make the hub shell expand a lot more than the steel bearing race and relax the fit somewhat. My hub happened to be out of the wheel for a rebuild, but you could heat one up with a hairdryer or heat gun.