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krav pressure tests consist of continual attacks from at least three attackers which will only be from a selection of attacks applicable to the level of the person being attacked over a period of time specified by the defenders level. [...]

All attacks are carried out with 95% aggression, you have to get yourself out of the attack the attacker won't let you off lightly. [...]

we also have started trying to get a little krav involved in kickboxing sparring i.e rather than backing out at the end of a combo start grappling and throwing in some knees and using the take downs/disengagements from the pressure tests to stop your sparring partner before restarting. I find this much more fun than regular sparring but it tends to get really chaotic quickly.

Thanks for the description: sounds interesting. It would be intriguing to hear how those kickboxing sessions go, or if you ever head down to a MMA class to see the differences sparring there (or indeed BJJ or muay thai, but those of course have the limitations that one is purely grappling while the other is purely striking).

I have been training in krav maga and kickboxing for the last 3 years. I have tried to avoid posting in this thread as im a scrawny little 62 kilo stick of a lad and talking about fighting always seems to give me a total complex about being a shorty...but....

Heh - I'm 64kg, so I can sympathise. ;)

but kickboxing is much more sport based whereas krav is very focussed on quickly and efficiently removing yourself from a difficult situation using the most basic simple and logical techniques that can be remember quickly and under pressure. Kickboxing obviously helps get your body used to the physical aspects of throwing strikes etc but sparring and krav pressure testing a very different beasts.

I think I've already said my piece about the whole 'sport' label, but I'd be interested in hearing more about exactly what you do in Krav Maga to pressure test techniques. Krav Maga frequently pops up on these kind of threads, largely because people will point to "its from the Israeli military, so it MUST be effective."

When it comes to unarmed combat, "taught to the military" unfortunately does not automatically equal effective. Perhaps because they already have the infinitely more effective medium of guns, there has been an incredible amount of silly stuff taught in the military over the years, though things are looking up with the US adoption of modern combatives.

Is there any compliance in this Krav Maga pressure testing, or is the person on whom you're trying to apply the technique doing their very best to prevent you achieving it? That has to be present for an effective martial art, which is why regular, heavy contact sparring is an essential part of an effective martial art (though as discussed earlier, not everybody wants to learn how to fight, and there is nothing wrong with that, so long as the style doesn't pretend to offer more than it can deliver).

So where are U training? I was interested in doing some form of grappling at some point

Right now, I train at RGA High Wycombe with Kev Capel, a BJJ school (I go into detail about exactly what the classes are like here).

especially after watching some great vids about Eddie Bravo and his Rubber Guard.
Eddie Bravo is a good teacher with interesting ideas, but unless you're actually training with him, I tend to be of the opinion that its better to get some fundamentals down before attempting rubber guard (as per FAQ).

If you're looking for some general advice about getting into BJJ, I babble about it at length here. Naturally BJJ isn't the only option: wrestling, judo and SAMBO are also all great grappling styles, with plenty of aliveness and competitive opportunities.

All the above in consideration, if you can delete self defense from your mind, then why not just train to have a steffi graf in whatever style appeals to you?

Oh, absolutely: personally I train for fun, I don't care about the self defence applications. The problem is when a style advertises itself as 'self-defence' and can't back it up, or worse, criticises other demonstrably effective styles for being 'sports'.

Happens a lot, which is why I automatically splurge something like the above in response.

really? for self defense its best to avoid disciplines that teach you to fight fare in a ring type setting. Boxing is for sport, Karve Manga is for fighting every thing else falls between the two

As far as I am concerned everything self defense labelled is a bit ... intangible.
How many success stories do we have proven? How many people that do [insert martial art here] have you seen defending themselves in a real situation? Everything else might be urban legend. [...]

The "no eyegouges" argument doesn't float in my books. Who says a trained competition martial artist wouldn't be able to poke someone or kick em in the nuts or poke them in the eyes ever?

Yeah: I have always found the 'self defence' versus 'sport' something of a false dichotomy when it comes to 'sports' like BJJ, muay thai and boxing. Like I say in my FAQ, taking part in competition (a defining characteristic of a sport) does not automatically mean a style is no good for self-defence. It merely means that its possible to use the techniques of that style in a regulated environment, which conversely can result in people who are capable of defending themselves using those same techniques, presuming its trained with 'aliveness' (in short, progressive resistance: if you're not familiar with the term, read this).

If any martial art claims to be applicable to self defence but does not include heavy contact sparring, then there is no way of knowing the validity of that claim. All that normally happens is that anecdotal evidence will be offered up, like "my mate is a bouncer and he uses aikido all the time" or "I used wing chun to defend myself in a street fight and it worked fine."

Styles like BJJ, muay thai etc can instead point to the numerous taped competitions to demonstrate that what they're teaching can be applied against a fully resisting opponent. Naturally this isn't the same as a street fight, as all sorts of other factors come into play (not just physical, but mental, verbal, chemical, environmental etc), but it is a high-pressure setting in which the technique can be tested.

This is not the case for styles which refuse to compete or spar, often using excuses like "our techniques are too deadly", which therefore effectively translates as "our techniques have never been tested. Also, as pascalo said, a 'sport' stylist can use an eye gouge just as easily as a 'self-defence' practitioner. Indeed, they can use it MORE effectively, because their training is likely to put them in a far more dominant position (e.g., a judo or BJJ guy will know how to obtain the mount and control you from there, meaning that they are much better placed to eye gouge etc).

This ability to prove the efficacy of a technique is especially true of MMA. Neither BJJ or muay thai cover the whole picture, as they focus on grappling and striking respectively: in a mixed martial arts fight, both can be used. MMA forms the closest thing currently available to a street fight, while still enabling both fighters to stay safe and keep on training.

The alternative is to go and start fights in bars, which would certainly prove whether or not your style was effective, but it would also likely lead either to serious injury or prison. On top of that, street fighting is a poor methodology for improving your efficacy, because it is too dangerous to do on a regular basis.

A BJJ or muay thai class, on the other hand, can be done regularly and safely. Because you're able to practice for long periods consistently, you'll get better, and you'll become more effective. The training methodology makes it effective, and it is this methodology that is missing from so many other martial arts, which in turns means they are far less useful.

Your site is awesomely detailed but makes my firefox crash (fine on safari though)

Ah, didn't notice the edit.

That's a concern: there is a lot of stuff in there, with pictures and huge reams of text, but worrying if its crashing on a regular basis. I use Firefox myself, and (so far at least) haven't had it crash when trying to load up the blog.

Did that happen every time, and was it on a particular page?

Did you join just to reply to this thread slideyfoot?

Thanks ;)

Yep: if I see a link I don't recognise pop up in my blog stats, I'll always follow it to the source. :)

Hopefully one of those places will prove useful to you. I'd guess the Capojitsu club is probably going to be the most affordable, as IIRC, that's run by a purple belt.

Forgot to emphasise 'where I live' & what I think is reasonably good value. There is a gracie barra in birmingham but it costs like £10 a session! That is a fortune when you get paid below minimum wage.

GB Brum is probably the best place to train in Birmingham, but it does have a price tag to match (however, when you compare that to London prices, works out pretty cheap. At the Roger Gracie Academy, its £90 a month, and if you just want to train a single class, £18).

However, its not the only option in the city. As per my map, these are all the BJJ clubs I'm aware of in and around Birmingham:

Capojitsu BJJ
Synergy Fitness, Calthorpe School
Darwin St, High Gate
Birmingham
B12 0TJ
07779344103

     [ Capojitsu BJJ (West Brom) ](http://www.capojitsu.co.uk/)

Brandon Way
West Bromwich
Birmingham
B70 9PW
0800 612 9325

     [ Gracie Barra Birmingham ](http://www.graciebarrabirmingham.com/)

Stevie B's Gym, 32 Station Road
Acocks Green
Birmingham
B27 6DN
0121 707 9609

Pedro Bessa West Brom
The Rick Dubidat BlackBelt Academy
Unit 1 Brandon Way
West Bromwich
B70 9PW

     [ Roleta BJJ (Oldbury) ](http://www.myspace.com/dtecmma)

Tat Bank Road
Oldbury
Birmingham
B69 4NH
07904532502

     [ Roleta BJJ Birmingham ](http://www.roletabjj.com/?page_id=71)

Ramada Hotel
Sebastian Coe Health Club
Penns Lane
Walmely, Sutton Coldfield
B76 1LH
contact@roletabjj.com
0121 288 8678

Once you do get started, you might also find the BJJ Beginner FAQ useful.