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Yes, if rightists like Braverman wishes to go through life being permanently angry and pissed off they at least owe the rest of us a duty of care to ensure that they are in full possession of basic facts. Otherwise, it's just plain mendacity.

Ha Ha! Got to love this forum.

Lovely. Tell me that you don't really put this through the grime of a British winter? That's why they invented carbon!

This frame reminds me of a Surly Crosscheck.

Is KB really the best that the Establishment can field?
Truly we live in a bizarre age.

Very good. Don't forger Cholera! JRM every Victorian child's worst nightmare.

My inner cynic tells me that the rushed nature of this debate, ie a short time for discussion and public consultation, leads me to think that this is another Westminster stitch up. MPs will vote against the bill as a way of simply getting the issue out of the way. The focus on the paternalistic/religious beliefs of mps is causing stress. Westminster's job is to safely channel democracy onto secure turf.

F + R brakes all the way wherever you ride. It's a mental thing. You need to feel secure whatever the terrain.

A bunch of old racist twats up and down the country will not vote for K.B.
They don't even like their fellow Europeans! In electoral terms the only gainer will be Falange and his reformers.

If only Labour had fought the tories like this!

Keep the bike. It's not about being fast for gentlemen of certain years but
rather looking good going slow.

Much agreement Mashton. I've enjoyed the often detailed and lively discussions over the past few pages. However, I'll take any positives I can at the moment. The possibility of a Tory party on its death bed is one I'll celebrate.

Excellent and lively discussion, Kimmo and Slippers. You are both correct, sadly, in affirming that argument and discussion never changed anyone's mind. Only lived experience can do this. Perhaps this will start to happen soon, on a practical level with the failure of both political parties. The Tories f***ed up, no
doubt Labour will follow. Ridding ourselves of these two zombie parties may prove to be a start.

Keir, you might be a sharply dressed man but standing there with a begging bowl is not a good look.
I would have thought that the British economy and society generally would benefit from more regulatory oversight. This would indicate an incipient break from the past 45 years. I dare to dream!

This frame is good enough for a MGOOF?

Optimism of the will, Pessimism of the intellect.

Much agreement. I'm not a Dominic Cummings fan but his analysis of the state of Labour/Tory is bang on. Basically, we have 2 zombie parties, both dead from the neck upwards, both inadequate to the task of reversing national decline. His take though is to hand the country over to big data companies. As ever with the right , this is just another top down fantasy. Our state needs radical reform. The problem at the moment there is no agent for this.

When asked to define Labour's foreign policy objective, the then Labour PM
Blair said ' The goal is to wedge the UK's head so tightly and so far up the White House's arsehole that there's no daylight'.
How far has Starmer got?

Brilliant!

The right of the Labour party conspired to get rid of Corbyn for the simple reason that he wished to pursue an independent(of the U.S.) foreign policy.
Corbyn threatened to recognise Palestine. The City and its bankers didn't care about Corbyn's domestic policies. After all, his ideas were pretty main stream in Europe. It would seem that we are destines to follow U>S policy come what may.

About 5 years ago, I purchased a disc road bike. This bike can take guards and a rack which I fitted. This bike does everything I ask of it. It hauls my shopping, gets me to the gym, gets me to appointments and does an occasional winter ride of 25 miles or so. I clean and maintain it and that's it! The problem is that I am completely indifferent to it. I neither like/dislike it. Do other forum members experience similar?

Unfortunately, we're stuck with a 2 party system. This means that one party needs to oppose and holds the govt of the day to account. The Tories left the reality based community a long time ago. This means that there is a vacuum at present. Let's hope other parties have the desire to step up and serve democracy.

Don't get this thread. I seem to be trapped in an endless loop of signification.
However, I do spend a lot of time thinking about which quality consumer goods I would like to possess. Am I in?

It is beginning to look that Labour are poor at doing politics. After Partygate and the Tories' barely concealed corruption, could not the Labour party have said 'We're not a party that accepts free stuff'. Thus claiming the moral high ground as well as recognising that we're all crooked wood and seriously open to free stuff. This would have seriously enabled the party to outflank the Tories.
All politicians aren't the same but humans get tempted. So let's change the rules.

I really was hoping for much better from the incoming Labour govt.
To be bogged down in all this row about free stuff is depressing. To not understand that the right wing press will never let this go is lamentable.
Sadly, I think all our politicians view their privileges as rights. Hence the crap excuses for taking stuff. Have they not learned the lessons of the expenses scandal?