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I think the lug work, with those windows, and the style of TT cable eyes are wrong for a holdsworth. Very few models had windows. Can't see any frame number on the picture, can you get a better view. from 1976 Holdsworth change from 5 digits to 6 and the location moved to typically to further up the drive side of the BB.
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Yes, i remember the discussions on that one, and often see RT badged as Holdsworths. I have been looking back over the shop built holdsworths and the RT ones in 74/75 invariably have windows in the lugs and often short seat stay caps. We do see RT with 69xxx numbers and one of those has windows, but as the sequential part is high it could well be from early 70's as per the discussions around yours. I am coming to the view that typically Holdsworth did not use windows except late Pro.s, they also tended to use std. stay caps with the fastback exceptions on TT style frames.
Looks like RT continued building his own frames after 75 when Holdsworth went to the 6D system from the factory. Roy's seems to be using 5 or possibly 6 digits some with letters and built from the shop using the frames builders of the day as mentioned above. We did have some odd frames not able to be identified which I initially put in the Falcon Holdsworth group due to the letters and high numbers. But now I am inclined to think they too are part of the RT group as they also have windows. This leaves the Falcons without windows and std. stay attachment all built in 531C tubing as far as I can see. Moving these odd frames gets them into the right time period and cleans up the other groups nicely.
With this frame here I think the seat stays are similar to the description of the RT Cometizione which is the only one in the catalog to have the stays mentioned, the other bikes have more commonly seen attachments. Also the Holdworth 531 Special has a similar attachment and is a bit of a one off. The windows are the same as RT used on later frames and the general geometry is the same as my other 69xxx shop Sprint, only the angle could be one deg steeper as the RT Comp. I don't think the 70's catalog shows recess brake bolts so think this frame is later than the 70's, but still likely to be a RT?. The only remaining question is the short number? I can only assume it comes from shortly after some reset and the options for that would be 1976 or 1984 when Marlboro bought the factory and the shop was stand alone. I am therefore more inclined to go with 80's particularly as it came badged with a Holdsworth decal of the period. I've not found a 80's RT catalog, but believe things were more bespoke customer build at that time..
Bit long winded, but running out of other option to follow.
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Yes, this is a 68mm BB. I am relatively happy to leave it a bit vague. I am reasonable convinced it it RT not least because any other leads go nowhere. I think the 70,s catalog all show normal bolted rear caliper. So again looks like 80's. I have not seen a RT cat for the 80's and believe it was more bespoke by then. I'll leave a bit of a question mark on this one and see if anything else turns up, in mean time I'll put RT decals on.
Fortunately the lo-pro has a very distinctive seat stay attachment which Tom identified as one of his. There are several similar ones, but the small pad was the give away.
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Yes, I'am inclined to agree. Most of the features tick the RT box, nut that number is very low. That said he seems to have used many number systems. It cam with 80's Holdsworth decals which could also fit. Thinking just some road sprint.
I think the most long winded ID I had to do was on a Tom Board Lo-Pro, but patients paid off and I got to speak to him some time ago and he confirmed it.
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Interesting searches, I see what you mean about Mike Kowal's, very similar seat stay attachment, but didn't see any windows in any lugs. The Aende's had some windows, but the stay attachment never matched. Not much to see on Dave Moulton. They all had many with missing stay brace. Also found a RT with missing brace on a shop numbered TT frame from 1975.
Been looking at the brake boss again, I assume these were available to all, but I have two other frames, A 1980 Holdsworth Pro SL and a 90's Falcon CB Criterium with exactly the same one. I am thinking this is suggesting an 80's frame. Can't get away from those windows suggesting a RT. Could just be some sort of sprint/path road single speed build built to customer request. I understand there were no set models in the 80's.
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ok, thanks. I have some from H Lloyd read to go on if needed.
Still trying to confirm. It seems similar to the catalog for the 70's bikes, but looks more 80's to me with the recessed bolt and no rear brace. That said I have been informed this could be missing on some TT frames. Maybe it is a latter frame as I understood they built to order after that. I also can't place such a short number.
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ok, interesting. I am thinking/hoping there is some Holdsworth link and with the windows could be RT. If 70's would fit the catalog description and number could be early post shop number system ~1976. Who know's, I thinks its too good to go unbadged.
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Ok thanks, I did see several San Remo's but as you say too early. I may well looking to the option you mention. That missing chainstay bridge is a bit odd. I have that on my 89 Raleigh Roadace, but it was there in preceding years. I am thinking this could date it around early 90's hence the link to a Falcon Holdsworth, but by then there were using longer frame numbers with letters and usually a badge on the bottom of the seat tube. Also not seen those windows on a Falcon Holdsworth which were 531C frames mainly by then.
Widows common on RT's and it does fit the 70's cat description. could be a later build, but number rather short again. Still it does the job I want it to do, spends most of the time covered in road dirt so doesn't much matter what decals are on it!
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Thanks, That has been suggested as an option, but it's a bit steep for a road frame at 75deg? the other geometry is identical to my shop built Holdsworth Track/sprint. Also the same as the RT version of the Competizione. Both these look to be too old though.
I have seen your comments on other Falcons, do you know much about their involvement in Holdsworth? I have not seen track frames in this era or windows used in the lugs used by them, but with the foil decals fitted after repaint there could be a link to a Falcon Holdsworth?
An orange Holdsworth is not uncommon, particularly if its had a re-spray, but I have not seen a genuine Holdsworth with the hart shaped windows. They did use windows on a few frames, but not this style. Unfortunately many other firms did, Roy Thame in particular who ran the Holdsworth shop.
As for the number I think you are going to have to remove some of the paint. Holdsworth 5D numbers would be across the middle of the BB or around the edge, both under the BB. the 6D numbers always start with a zero and are typically higher up the BB on the drive side. There are exception to both at times where these positions were interchanged, but it will be one of these. You should see the numbers below the BB on your first photo and the typical 6D is under the black in the last. As you look at it is should be just above the rear gear cable guide where the DT joins the BB. The stamping can be quite poor and get cover in paint particularly if its been resprayed. I have attached a photo of a similar hunt for a number which is also listed further back in this thread.