Mystery Machine...

OK, I'm going to see if I can see this thread through to completion this time. My BSA Javelin build thread ( https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/223880/#comment12209199 )stopped before the money shot! And, I completely failed to catalogue and upload my Peugeot Yale build.

So, this is the starting point of my build. An unidentified, but promising looking steel frame. I bought it on the basis of the word "lightweight". I don't really have any reference point to say whether it is or not. It's 3.1 kg cw BB, forks and headset. I popped it up on the "Any idea what this is?" forum ( https://www.lfgss.com/comments/13527475/ ). But, no takers there. However, @ssswinton has been really helpful in pointing toward an era.

Basically, it is steel. Some decals say 531 (but, those could just be optimistic add-ons!). It's thin walled (27.2 mm seat post required) and lugless. That's as much as I know. From my conversations with @ssswinton, it could be from the 80s. So, I am aiming at a fairly period build - don't have the budget to be too precious. I'm going down the Shimano route - 600/tricolore brakes and gears at the moment, depending on what I can source and what fits. (chainset, brakes, levers, derailleurs, pedals on their way - thanks @ssswinton and cybernck ).

The main sticking point could be the rear wheel. I have a nice Ambrosio (Durex) wheel set from a previous build. The front will be fine. But, the rear is built on a Maillard track hub. I want to go gears with this build, ideally, 7 of them, i.e. 2x7 speed. So, I need to source a 122 mm 7-speed hub (cassette preferably). Any pointers / advice on that would be most appreciated.

Fortunately, I have a Cinelli bar (42 cm Giro) and 110 mm stem (XA, I think) from "shed stock". So, that will go on, probably with black bar tape, unless I can find a matching (properly matching, not close) green. Stem is missing the Cinelli badge from the front, if anyone knows where to get a replacement - I thought I'd seen them somewhere, but that memory has vanished into the ether!

Not sure which way to go on the saddle. I have a stripped down Selle Italia SLR in the shed. OK for short distances. But, anything over an hour on that requires some serious "downstairs" pampering!

So, this is the start. Let's see how the twists and turns of the Mystery Machine build go...

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Looking nice!

What's the BB threading on it?

Hit the middle of the downtube with your fingernail - R531 has a distinctive crystalish ping to it, rather than the dull sound of Columbus tubing.

However, depends what you compare it to but at ~2.7-2.75 kg for bare frame & fork, it's generally not exactly lightweight per se. It's "normal", I'd say.

Google for seatpost sizes etc for specific type of tubing but there have usually been several sizes for the same tubing, so it can't be used as a definitive telltale.

Hope this helps, Nikica.

I can't imagine there are many fillet brazed frames from 70's or 80's?
I have a frame which is similar and is a Condor Baracchi built in 1971 by Vic Edwards.
I checked the frame number with Condor in email and they came back a few weeks later.

It has very similar features to yours i.e. fillet brazed (obvs), fastback seatstays (I think they're called), semi sloping Cinelli crown. All the Barachi's had slightly different features I think depending on year of manufacture and customer requirements, so crowns changed, dropouts and some had mudguard eyes.

I see from the thread you have have the frame number it might be worth dropping condor an email?
My particular frame number started with a V as Vic Edwards used this prefix when building for Condor, apparently.

Lovely looking frame by the way.
good luck

p.s. if it helps, my frame and forks is very similar in size and is confirmed by Condor as being built with butted 531, I could weight it if it helps?

edit: I've just checked a snap and my seatstays at teh seat cluster at are different, i have fastback and I think yours are called "shot in".

Thank you, Shipwright.

I'll give them a go. It may be a long shot. But, they might have some more ideas, even if it isn't one of theirs. As I've said somewhere, if all else fails, I could always just get some Scooby Doo stickers...

I've got a lot of terminology to learn! Fastback, shot in...

But, I have learned how helpful people are on this forum - and also that the frame builders are very forthcoming with information.

Cheers. More posts as I learn new things...

Thanks, Nikica.

I'll give the tubes a ping when I get in tonight.

Pretty sure the BB is English. It's a 68 mm shell. I haven't taken it out yet (came with the frame). But, I think I should be able to tell by the direction of threading on one side or the other.

Thanks again

Jimbonic, I'm with you on the learning front. I only know the names of the stays as Condor told me!
I think you might as well contact Condor. Incidentally if its a Condor Barachi Condor will sell you a modern headbadge for £25 but there's a decal company (H Lloyd, I think) who makes repro decals and can normally supply period specific Reynolds decals.
retrobike.co.uk is a good source of info as well for this sort of research if you've not come across it. Sorry if thats a granny and eggs thing.
good luck

Well, I've pinged them an email. So, I'll sit back and wait...

H Lloyd, indeed. I've discovered that site. A very comprehensive range of decals. I shall probably send some business their way, if only I can confirm who built this frame.

Thanks for the tip on Retrobike. I shall have a delve.

Cheers

Classic Lightweights is also a great source of information. They have vast information on frame numbering convention of lots of builders etc.
If you nail down a likely builder, you may be able to use that site to identify frame type and year / builder etc.
Good luck!

i'm surprised noone posted this yet, but it needs new paint..

You outbid me then, I was keen on this too

531 is likely, the chrome, extra paint layer, cartridge BB will all add weight

122mm hub? sounds like it was 126mm but clamped on a track hub with a washer and now set

Check the fork steerer to see if it has matching number

Thanks, smac. I'll rummage around their site and see if anything looks familiar.

I've so far contacted MKM and Condor with no luck and response awaited, respectively.

Cheers

Ha Ha. Yes, exactly!

Hi, gitabitan. Sorry about that! I went a touch over budget. But, not much. It's an occupational hazard!

I'm led to believe that 122 mm would be typical of a 5-speed set up. But, I have to admit that I am scratching about a bit. This is my first real dip into the retro pool and I'm learning quite a lot, with all the much appreciated help from this community. :-)

Oh, and yes, I checked the fork steerer a few days ago. It has a matching frame number, which is encouraging.

Cheers

5 speeds of the 50s/60s were 120mm spaced, this would have been 6/7 speed which is 126mm, you'll need to space it out again. With shimano in the late 80s you have uniglide and hyperglide chainset standards, if you are going with 2x7 then remember 600 ultegra was an 8 speed groupset after 1992 and the more common rear hub FH-6402 is 130mm wide

However I think the original FH-6400 is 126mm wide and the CS-6400-7 was the 7 speed cassette

hope that makes sense

Yes, it's an odd one. I would have thought the frame would set, or would have been set, to 120 mm, if any previous owner went the "track" route. But, hey, I'm stumbling around in the dark here.

I briefly flirted with the idea of an interim fixie build. But, I decided to go straight for the gearie build.

Thanks very much for the tips.

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that, with the aid of different sized spacers, it's possible to "upgrade" to 7-speed on a 6-speed hub (supposedly works with 7 up to 8, etc.). Requires more research....

Update:
New things have arrived – yay!
Frame checked for straightness. It seems to be within 0.5 mm, as measured with my Wickes steel rule!
BB checked and British. So, that should make things simple.
Seatpost definitely 27.2 mm. Got a black(ish) Kalloy for the moment. May be upgraded when I know what I want and what will go with the bike.
Handlebars de-taped and cleaned up. Having a bit of trouble removing one of the brake levers, though. I managed to create three lovely, twisty allen keys! OK, they were the cheap kind from an Ikea box. But, still. So, looks like I need to invest in a proper allen key and get medieval on its ass!
Having a bit of a re-think on bar tape and saddle (I was always going to have to re-think the saddle!). Possibly may head toward some sort of tan tape and saddle - go for the MGB look. Anyway, that's for some time in the future - time and money are not my friend!
I’m cogitating over the rear hub and gears. I’m getting hold of a 122 mm rear hub (Shimano 105 with freehub). I’ll see whether some jiggery pokery with spacers can save the day. Otherwise, I might have to re-think the 7-speed idea and go even further back in time.
Other than that, all I need to do is fettle, clean, polish, etc., bolt bits to bike, add some cables, bar tape, chain and pop some air in the tyres and I’ll be on my way.
Seems so simple………

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don't worry about the hub, it's possible to get it cold set back to 126mm. or you can do it yourself using the hub. the steel will take it.

oh, and use those 600 cranks. best looking crank ever.

Hi Matisse,

Thanks very much. Yes, I fancied a bit of retro Shimano. No idea what the frame would have been built up with originally. But, you're right the 600 stuff looks really nice. Although, I'm torn between the grey 600 brakes and the shiny silver Dia Compes that are on the bike at the moment. I reckon I'll plump with the 600s, as there's an outside chance they'll actually work....!

And, thanks for the tip on the frame. I have used a hub to persuade the stays out on another frame. It worked with that one. I'm going to give the cassette bodge a go first - research if nothing else :-p

Cheers

for anything Shimano freehub or cassette related, Sheldon Brown is the Ultimate resource, just search that in Google.

re frame spacing I've read it's easy but never performed it myself so on a recent build I spoke to my recently opened LBS and they didn it for £20, which I thought this was a good value when you consider the time involved in doing it and checking etc. It was a 130 to 135 spread so not much at all bit I wanted to ensure the vertical DOs were perfect perp once complete.

Yes, absolutely. I only have to type "s" and up comes Sheldon! I've had a quick read through his stuff on Shimano freehubs/wheels and it's very useful. It appears there are a few ways to skin this particular cat...
Thank you

Thanks, Shipwright. I might investigate that with my LBS, if my current plan falls apart - they're usually pretty helpful.

Forgive me father, for I have sinned. It has been a whole month since my last confession!

Not too much happening at the moment. A recent trip to Iceland (the country, not the purveyors of prawn rings!) swallowed vast quantities of cash!

However, I've managed to wrestle the Dia Compe brake levers off the bars - and in one piece! Also, been cleaning up a few bits and pieces, ready for putting it all together at some point.

Ah yes, on the subject of hubs, I have found myself a Shimano 105SC rear hub (FH-1055) that fits and will take my 7-speed hyperglide cassette - yay! So, I splashed out on a matching front hub (HB-1055) - unnecessary expense, but you've just got to have matching. So, I've disassembled the wheels. I'll put the Ambrosio Elite rims on with new spokes. I'll probably plump for fairly run of the mill DT Swiss double butted silver spokes. I liked the look of the plain gauge spokes - nice and meaty. But, I could do with keeping weight down without going too spendy.

I'm waiting on the seat post, now. A Campag aero post of unknown vintage. Should go nicely with the bike. I wanted Shimano to go with the rest of the kit. But, this one came up at the right time. Once I'm into the world of getting it all to fit me, I might see about something else.

So, all that's needed now is:
Chain
Spokes
Cables
Seat post binder bolt
Bar tape
Possibly a saddle - my stripped down SLR is super lightweight but unkind to your unmentionables!
Oh, and time!

I'm still no wiser as to the frame builder. My research hasn't turned up anything so far. Latest possibles are Roberts or Philbrook, as they have been known to build lugless frames and/or add in special features from years back. Any help on this will be most gratefully received. I think I have asked this on another thread. I'll look that up and give it a bump (with this extra info).

I'm still hoping I'll get this finished and on the road for some summer fun....

(I'll pop some more photos (of non-progress) up when I get a moment)

OK. So, life got in the way a bit!

I finally got the build finished. Bit late for some summer fun. But, hey.

So, it now has a Selle Italia Turbo saddle, wheels built up (Ambrosio Elite rims on Shimano 105 hubs) and bars all wrapped up in faux leather. Strictly, it could do with some slightly longer drop brakes and the gears setting up better. I've struggled to find anything suitable on the brake front.

I've (hopefully) posted a photo of the finished article. I still have no idea who's the frame builder. But, never mind, it's a good looking thing. And, quite light, I think. It tips the scale at 10.3 kg.

The bad news is that I'm going to have to sell it. It's a lovely thing, but the tax man needs paying and the bank account is full of moths!

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