What frame(set) am I looking for? (Outside of my narrow Columbus world)

New single speed project time!

My Liberati has a mid-70s Italian Columbus steel frame and it's everything I want; lightweight, has lovely lugs, great handling, chromed chainstays, cable guides.... I want something exactly like it that's either in great condition already or I can tart-up by spraying and if needed chroming - all under £200. Ideally it'd have conventional threading and dimensions so I can use the various Italian vintage seatposts, headsets and stems (and in my dreams my Campy crankset) I have lying around. Or, at a push, my steel Langster bits and pieces assuming I don't sell it. I.e. probably not French then, from what I gather...

Searching for "vintage columbus frame" (etc) on eBay etc surfaces the odd thing now and then (which I get sniped on!!! aargh!) but it's pretty limited and most of it is frickin expensive Pinarellos, Colnagos and Cinellis which make me horny but sad because I'm poor and it'd only get nicked.

So... I thinking I need a better search term. Maybe I should be searching the world of Raleigh, Carlton, Dawes, Mercier, Halfords and other brands. But I know nothing about them... What's good? What's lightweight? What steels are good? What should I avoid? What dirty sneaky insider tricks can I use to get the frame of my dreams?

Any and all help welcome.

Jof

(PS if you happen to have a 55cm frame that matches my needs, do let me know)

hi, i would say ebay is a no no just because people know what they have and try to take advantage or have a really nice old frame witch is worth every penny but no good for a budget fixed gear, i would say try gumtree in your area with luck you will find a full bike for dirt cheap because the owner does not know the quality of the frame, also look into a bike jumble near you or a recycling bike project. a ideal frame would be Reynolds 531, just keep a eye out for cheap gas pipe badged up with a fancy 531 or Columbus decal.

good luck.
lewis.

There's a nice Dave quinn in Reynolds 853 on eBay at the minute.

gazelle champion mondial 531

Good calls. That all helps loads.

We used to source 531 for our racing car spaceframes so I'm guessing that's probably a good direction...

Is there any way to infer the weight of a frameset from the badges or the bike itself? I have an old 531-equipped hybrid from the 90s at my parents and it's really heavy so just looking for 531 is not enough. Does lug design give any clues? (E.g. there are some columbus lugs that are really sleek which often indicate a more expensive/light frame).

Yes there are a few types of 531 tubing of the top of my head there is 531st (super touring) witch is fairly light for touring while been heavy duty not ideal for a fixed gear to be fair, there is a standerd type of 531 witch is very common and there bog standerd tubing still fairly light and stiff I presume that is what your bike is made from at your parents if you think its really heavy. There is also 531c (competition) my fg is 531c and personally its amazingly quick and responsive the only thing I have noticed is there is abit of flex from the bottom bracket area witch is anoying thinking about it but trust me its unnoticeable while riding.

531 ST are really heavy, only good loaded tbh.
531 cometition just replaced 531 double butted(same tubing diffferent name)
plain gauge 531 is fairly bog std and didn't really get much in the way of sculpted stays or lugs, it's the 531 pro frames you want.
Reynolds 853, 753 and some other handbuilts like Argos, Dave Yates, Raleigh SBDU, don't forget Ishiwata frames and also vitus
here's a nice Swinnerton ready for a respray, nice lugs, London based and it's cheap
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROY-SWINNERTON-CYCLES-VINTAGE-REYNOLDS-531-DOUBLE-BUTTED-ROAD-FRAME-1970s-/351079865356?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Fragrances_Women_s_Fragrances_PP&hash=item51bdfd9c0c

Did not know that about competition and double butted! Everyday is a schoolday. :)

531 is outdated and pretty heavy. There are often Ribble 631/753/853 frames kicking about which usually go for cheap cause of the name...

531 is outdated and pretty heavy. There are often Ribble 631/753/853 frames kicking about which usually go for cheap cause of the name...

Outdated chronologically..maybe, however a 531 frame built by a top quality builder will still be better than a frame built using lighter so called higher spec tubing by an average builder. Not all things are equal in bike frame terms, same tubing, differing geo and a good/average frame builder can end up with frames a world of difference apart.
Also if you weigh a 753 or 853 frame compared to say a 531 Pro..you're looking in the region of 1/2 to a full water bottle weight wise and weight is not everything, no good having a light tubeset that rides like a dog or is really whippy(unless you like that sort of thing), the lugs used can make a significant weight difference too..

Agree on the older Ribble frames though, good VFM.

I recommend a mid-Seventies Liberati: I think you'll find it has everything you want. :)

Seriously though, the first thing I suggest you do, is to decide what you will actually use the bike for; only then can you make an informed choice as to, amongst other things, tubing.

"Which tubeset?" questions, invariably receive an amount of ill-informed, willy-waving in reply: there is no "best" tubeset, but there will be "best for x application" choices and weight is not an absolute indicator.

From what you have written above, you don't seem to have a clear idea of what you're after: on the one hand you want a vintage show-pony and on the other you want something cheap and of low interest to thieves.

Unless you figure this out, you're on the fast-track to an expensive, unsuitable build.

All great answers. And I learned some new things about 531 today. Glad I asked! :)

From what you have written above, you don't seem to have a clear idea of what you're after: on the one hand you want a vintage show-pony and on the other you want something cheap and of low interest to thieves.

Not sure I mentioned thieves, but I'll re-clarify in case it's ambiguous.

What I want is something pretty for <£200 with the above spec. Not because I want to be showy, but because I like nice stuff. I know it can be done because from time-to-time I've seen these exact things and I've seen other people get lucky on their hunts. E.g. the lovely black+chrome Columbus with Campy dropouts for £80 I got sniped on last week. Alternatively I can pick up an old frame and re-chrome and respray for £200 total. But the frame's got to be legit and lightweight in the first place or it's not worth spending my time on. Hence my question, really... if I only looked for Columbus stuff I'm going to take much longer.

Of course I'd love a £1000+ Pinarrelo Montello for my SS project but that'd be nuts for an all-weather weekday bike.

...it'd only get nicked.
Nothing wrong with "showy", I was getting at what you will actually use the bike for: Sunday best, commuting etc.

Apart from those you mentioned, look out for Daccordi, Zullo, Cioc, Somec and Gios; they all offer the sort of quality you're after. Some gems outside of Italy.

There aren't too many companies making steel: as well as Reynolds and Columbus the ones I can think of are Mannesmann, Oria, Ishiwata and Tange. A little time spent trawling the internet and you will soon be familiar with the different grades and able to make qualitative judgements.

Lugs are more likely to be an indicator of quality, than weight: nicely detailed, hand-filed lugs take time and skill, but lugs are a pretty stock item.

Seat post diameter is a more useful guide to the likely weight of a frameset: 27.2mm will be lighter than 27.0mm which will be lighter than 26.8mm etc.

Dropouts are always worth a look at: no-one puts Campag ends on a BSO.

Internal cable routing can be a red herring: sometimes used to give cheaper frames, a more expensive look. Look for a tube brazed between the two holes in the top tube.

Framebuilders like to show-off around the junction of the seat stays and the seat tube and in the way they finish off the seat stays. Have a look at frames you know to be top notch and compare with cheap ones.

I like a nice brake bridge! A tube with a hole is as basic as it gets; a shaped (often square where the brake attaches) is nice, but my favourites are the shaped pieces that look like an upside-down, lazy "V".

By no means exhaustive nor without exception, but it should get you started.

...that'd be nuts for an all-weather weekday bike.
As is everything you so far want. :)

That's brilliant feedback, thanks! Really appreciated :)

You can pick up decent Cornelo frames from time to time. He was a renegade builder for Colnago and parted company. I'd say they were among the finest Italian frames out there and usually go half of what you'd expect from Ernesto...

Occasionially you can pick up Colnago Supers (modern ones 1980/90's) ex forks for cheap. I bought one off ebay two weeks ago for £100. I'd already bought a decent set of forks for £50, chromed lugs and seat stays. They're out there!