What chainsets are compatible with a Super record BB from 1981 ?

I've been out of the game for 30 years & am trying to fix up my bikes that have been stored in the garage for that time. I'm trying to find what Cranks are compatible with a Super record bottom bracket bearing from about 1980.

I bought the bearing new & it is hardly used, but I have an SR crankset on it which I now want to fit to my other bike with its original bearing. I am now wanting to buy a used Campagnolo chainset for it. Obviously nouvo record & Super record & possibly Gran sport will fit. But I are any of the more recent Campagnolo chainsets compatible ?? I have been looking at the chorus & record (rounded castings) chainsets which appear to be much cheaper than the Super/Nouvo record etc. Any advice would be appreciated.

regards

Rob

the taper is supposed to be slightly different to modern campy iso. The Japanese copied the taper at the time, SR, Suntour and Sugino have 144bcd road/track cranks that would be compatible. think pista of that era is generally 109/111mm

you could use a square taper 1990's campy chainset and should be fine,

Any modern square taper chain set will fit. The difference between Campy and JIS are so small that they can be safely ignored. However,

A BB from that time probably has loose ball bearings. Whilst state of the art for that time, a cheap modern sealed bearing square taper BB is probably better.

I've got a load of old components from the 70s and 80s and although they were top of the range at the time, modern stuff is so much better and cheaper so unless you are looking to build a period bike, I would keep them as collectors items.

Thanks for your repsonses.

I'm not massively fussed about keeping period parts on the bike. At the same time I have absolutley no knowledge of these newer brands. Everyone says Shimano are the market leaders nowadays, but back in the day I wouldn't have used their parts.

Basically the scenario is I have a frame that I had built for me in 1980, that I have started doing the ocassional time trial on. I also have a Holdsworth that I use for most of mileage. The Holdsworth was just a frame until January & I bought some second hand bits to get it up and running. Like the chainset & a shimano rear mech. The chainset has really worn out rings, & the SHimano changer is sloppy as hell. My thoughts were to put the SR chainset off my other bike on the Holdsworth & put something new/used on the tailor made bike. Also to get rid of the SHimano changer.

The thing is I'm not sure what is compatible with my racing frame. I know it won't take anything more than a 6 speed block (the same as the Holdsworth).

I get confused with all this talk of 10 speed chainsets etc Back in my day they were just single or double ring ......

So what are good makes of chainset now that will fit the bike. & is there a currently available rear mech that will work on my Holdsworth. I don't know if you can used indexed changers with 6 speed blocks ?

Rob, I understand what you're going through :-) I started cycling in the mid 70s. I couldn't afford Campag at the time but Shimano had just brought out their Dura Ace range which was quite good but much cheaper. My bike was Dura Ace throughout except for Campag hubs, pedals and headset. And every part you bought then was compatible with everything you already had.

Unlike you, I never stopped cycling so I have evolved along with the bikes. Anyway, to deal with your questions:

Shimano are the brand leaders as their parts are on the majority of off the shelf bikes. Their top of the range is as good as Campag and just as expensive. Sometimes more so. Their bottom of the range stuff is pretty good and reliable. Shimano, are responsible for the current practice to redesign the range and every year and make sure it isn't compatible with the old stuff. Unfortunately, Campag have followed suit.

Your 1980 frame will have incompatibility issues with modern parts in the following areas:

1. Headset. Fortunately, you can still buy 1" threaded headsets
   
2. Brakes. Modern frames use short recessed brake bolts whereas the old frames use longer bolts with those curved washers. You can still buy these washers, but longer brake bolts may be hard to get.
   
3. Rear dropout width is 126mm for 5/6 speed hubs. These use screw on freewheels rather than modern freehubs with cassettes. As long as your hubs are fine, you still get new freewheels.
   
4. Gears. If you are happy to stick with down tube friction shifters then you will have fewer problems. Almost any rear dérailleur will work as the amount of travel with each gear is controlled by you. Shimano introduced 6 speed downtube indexed shifters in the mid 80s. I have no idea if they are still available. Integrated brake/shifters came out later in 7,8,9,10 and 11 speed versions and you'd need the appropriate cassette, chain and mech for each version. And your frame re-spaced if you wanted to use them.
   
5. The bottom bracket is probably the only bit that hasn't changed much (for steel frames, anyway). A modern sealed bearing square taper BB will fit your frame just fine. Shimano do them from about £10. I've bought a nice Tifosi one on eBay for £20. As I said above, any square taper chainset will do, you don't have to spend heaps of money. I have never found any discernible difference between chainsets labelled 8, 9 or 10 speed. I suspect it is just marketing.
   
   

You will have to ask yourself a serious question. Is all this worth it, or should just go out and buy a new bike?

Thanks for the response again.

It's interesting to know what will fir where withe the modern components.

Fortunately I have headsets & brakes & wheels for both bikes.

With regards to point 4 of your post re gears. I have no problem with friction levers. Are you saying that it's possible to use an indexed rear mech with friction levers ??

Point 5. I did have some problems with compatibility with the SR BB that my Holdsworth had fitted & the Superb (I'm guessing Suntour) chainset,& wound up having to fit a different bearing. But the rings on this chainset are worn out ... well really they're past worn out ...

For me buying a new bike really isn't an option as I don't have the money, & I'm quite happy with both bikes at the moment apart from this chainset issue. I suspect also at my age I'm unlikely to regain the racing form I had back in the day regardless of if I have the latest Carbon Fibre bike or my old 531 Mandez.

I'm really grateful for your advice, but you seem to have suggested options for changing everything but the chainset ... I'm looking at stuff like the SRAM. I can see the Tifosi BB on ebay, which looks really good. WHat chainset are you using with yours ?

Also I'm wondering about the possibility of just replacing the chainrings on the Superb chainset, but again, what is compatible ?

Sorry for all these questions but as you can appreciate I don't want to spend a bunch of ££ on some parts that don't work with my frame.

Thanks again Rob

Hi again, glad to help.

Firstly, I wasn't really suggesting you change everything, just if you did, those are some of the problems you might face. Anyway,

There is no such thing as an "indexed" rear mech. The indexing is in the shifter. The rear mech simply moves in response to the amount of cable pull exerted by the shifter. Indexing means that the cable will get pulled a set distance for every click of the shifter. Thus, an inexpensive new rear mech will do.

Ok, back to chainsets. Replacing the chainrings is possible but could work out more expensive then a new chainset. You have to work out what the BCD (bolt circle diameter) is on your existing chainset. Sheldon Brown's website give a list of possible sizes and also, how to measure it. TA probably make the biggest range of replacement chain rings. There is a big list on their website.

However, you may find something like this a better bet:
http://www.charliethebikemonger.com/driveline-compact-double-chainset---square-taper-175mm-5034t-1909-p.asp
Inexpensive and includes a BB

BTW, I don't know what your budget is but you can get a perfectly serviceable aluminium road frame for about £200.

Thanks again for the info.

Could you explain the difference between a compact & standard chainset ? Does it make a difference for my scenario ?

One of the reasons I am happy to keep this frame is that it cost me £125, which was a fortune to me back when I had it made for me by a friend in 1980. I never really rode it much because it was shortly after buying it that I stopped cycling. I chose every type of lug individually for it's position, & it is completely to my spec in every way. Since buying it I've only used it for the London to Brighton once, & London to Paris once, so I'm keen to start getting my moneys worth from it.

A compact chainset allows you to fit smaller chainrings on a road double chainset, typically 50/34 compared to standard road doubles that were traditionally 52/42 but these days 53/39. Otherwise you'd need a triple or something like the old TA Cyclotouriste chainset.

So tell us more about this frame of yours. Maybe post a picture. From what you say, you must definitely ride it.

[QUOTE=yoav;2926667]A BB from that time probably has loose ball bearings. Whilst state of the art for that time, a cheap modern sealed bearing square taper BB is probably better.
[QUOTE]

I disagree, a Campagnonlo [or any other quality] bottom bracket with loose balls properly fitted up and with no detremental wear will be 'better*' that a 'cheap' modern equivalent. However, the sealed BB has the advantage that it requires no skill to fit it. fit, forget and replace.

** Define better

• Define cheap.
  
  

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

more info here.

Your 1980 frame will have no incompatibility issues with modern parts in the following areas:

1. Headset. Fortunately, you can still buy 1" threaded headsets
   Ebay, forum, bike shops. issue solved.
   
2. Brakes. Modern frames use short recessed brake bolts whereas the old frames use longer bolts with those curved washers. You can still buy these washers, but longer brake bolts may be hard to get.
   Tektro and others make very serviceable longbolt brake calipers and Ebay or the forum sales. Issue solved
   
3. Rear dropout width is 126mm for 5/6 speed hubs. These use screw on freewheels rather than modern freehubs with cassettes. As long as your hubs are fine, you still get new freewheels.
   And/or new wheel set. Issue solved
   
4. Gears. If you are happy to stick with down tube friction shifters then you will have fewer problems. Almost any rear dérailleur will work as the amount of travel with each gear is controlled by you. Shimano introduced 6 speed downtube indexed shifters in the mid 80s. I have no idea if they are still available. Integrated brake/shifters came out later in 7,8,9,10 and 11 speed versions and you'd need the appropriate cassette, chain and mech for each version. And your frame re-spaced if you wanted to use them.
   Or use bar end shifters or those behind the brake lever units with the DTS brazeon adjusters/cable stops. If your frame is steel a few mm of cold set with fix the rear spaceing. issue solved
   
5. The bottom bracket is probably the only bit that hasn't changed much (for steel frames, anyway). A modern sealed bearing square taper BB will fit your frame just fine. [assume british] Shimano do them from about £10. I've bought a nice Tifosi one on eBay for £20. As I said above, any square taper chainset will do, you don't have to spend heaps of money. I have never found any discernible difference between chainsets labelled 8, 9 or 10 speed. I suspect it is just marketing.
   Not sure that "any chain set will do" get the best quiality you can afford
   
   

You will have to tell yourself often This Is all this worth it
fify

I remember building my first proper road bike in 1975. Fitting the bottom bracket required packing each of the bearing cups with grease then placing the bearings carefully in their races and installing the cups and axle taking care not to displace any of the bearings. You then had to adjust the cups (remember the 'fixed' and 'adjustable' cups?) to get the right amount of play in the bearings. You also had to be prepared to strip down the whole thing a couple of times a year, clean out the grease with paraffin, then re-build from scratch if you wanted it to last. When sealed bearings arrived it was a revelation. No more faffing about with paraffin, grease and picking up loose ball bearings off the floor. Sorry, but from experience, I have to disagree with you. Even cheapest £10 Shimano sealed BB will be better: easier to fit, doesn't need adjusting or regular maintenance and easily replaced when the time comes.

Hmm, better is a hard word to define. I belive their efficiancy to do the job required will be comparable/superior depending on the quality of the componants, the longevity of good quality loose ball BB's is legendary if well maintained, they are a quite a faf I agree, sealed BB very much easier to fit but 'better' is a moot point.

I do use both myself and am not a Loose BB evangelist ;-)

@Rob, any pics of the frame?

Here's a pic of the bike. The frame was made by Dave Manders who was a member of the cycling club I raced for. He owned a light engineering company & started making frames. I'm not sure how many he made. A friend of mine had another one, but stacked it irrepairably. I recently found that Dave is still living quite close by & hope to bump into him some time.

Here is a detail pic of how I had the rear stays done, which was a style you sometimes got on handmade frames at the time. I always liked the look of bikes with the stays done like this becasue they formed a triangle, which I thought of as being a bit stiffer than the rhombus formed by tacking them either side of the seat tube. Probably makes no difference in reality.

Very nice. Yes, you must ride it and keep it as original as possible.

First up: definitely worth restoring that beauty with period parts (but if you don't, it looks to be my size cough, cough). I too love the seat cluster, sometimes refered to as "fastback" and usually an indicator of a top quality build.

To return to your original question, although others are right that, in practice, the difference in tapers is immaterial no-one has mentioned the chain line.

There were two generations of Super Record bottom bracket: G1 had a hollow axle and used bolts to secure the cranks, it had a 112mm spindle. G2 had a solid axle and threaded ends using nuts to hold the cranks on; the spindle was available in lengths between 112mm and 115mm.

Assuming you have a 112mm spindle then you could use any of the C-Record era (late 80s to early 90s) cranks, as they normally used a 111mm spindle (and 135mm BCD).

However, I have just bought both English and Italian threaded 111mm C-Record era BB for £20 a piece, so there doesn't seem much point compromising: either bite the bullet and get Super/Nuovo Record cranks to match the BB or get a complete C-Record era set-up.

No disrespect to LFGSS, but I think Retrobike would be a better source of information and parts: as the name suggests it is aimed at riders of older bikes and naturally attracts older riders who have experience of the sort of problems you will face with a bike and parts of this age.

Thanks for the compliments & tips.

From what you say I believe my bottom bracket to be a first generation, because it uses bolts to secure the cranks.

IS the Crecord the same as the Corsa C record ? There seem to be so many different Campagnolo chainsets it gets a bit overwhelming.

Is it easy to get replacement chainrings for these chainsets ? The reason being that most of the used ones available seem to have a 52+ tooth outer ring, & something like a 48 tooth would be better for me. That would give me a useable gear range on just the outer chainring.

If it's 1st generation then should be 112mm: can you check this? You should also know that the reason there was a 2nd generation, was because Laurent Fignon crashed out while leading the 1982 Giro D'Italia when the spindle snapped...

Yes, C-Record is just an abbreviation for Corsa Record (1985 - 1990). 2nd generation Record (1991 - 1994) also used 111mm spindles as did the rest of the "family": Croce D'Aune, Chorus, Athena and Veloce.

Yes, new chain rings are readily available (135mm BCD).

I can well understand that you don't have pockets deep enough for Super Record (C-Record is just as expensive and good Chorus isn't a long way behind), but if you aren't going to use the matching cranks then I really don't see much merit in using your BB; it's a flawed design (hence G2), getting on for thirty years old and at best it will be a bit of a bodge job (112mm BB with 111mm cranks).

The BB is the least important part of a restoration job (it is only apparent on close inspection) but one of the most crucial parts of a working bike (the drivetrain is built around it and huge forces are put through it). A period loose bearing BB for C-Record era cranks can be had for about £25, which is about what you will pay for a modern cartridge BB.

Apologies if I am banging on a bit, but having a 1991 Ian May and a 1989 Peugeot, I speak from bitter(sweet) experience.