Unknown Path/Track Frame

First current project thread so lets see how it goes...

picked up this frame off fleabay thinking that it was a Rourke based on little other than one very poor picture, so it was always a bit of a gamble.

http://www.lfgss.com/picture.php?albumid=2189&pictureid=12551
http://www.lfgss.com/picture.php?albumid=2189&pictureid=12578
http://www.lfgss.com/picture.php?albumid=2189&pictureid=12579

anyway, turns out it isnt a rourke frame, the number on the bb is to high for where rourke are currently at.
so i'm thinking sand it down back to bare metal see what i can find my way of stamps or other marks under the paint.
might just leave it as bare metal, gonna see how it looks.
will update with photos once the paint is off.

I like the look of this frame, have fun with the build :)

From tge look of those ends, Nervex lugs, the curved brake bridge and round section fork including mudguard eyes, it's hard to see how that bike could be post 1960. Aren't Rourke much more recent than that? Also, Rourke use a wrapover stay top, whereas this has a tapered curved end at the cluster - quite a common way to finish the seatstay tops.

As Jack Thurston's interview with Ron Cooper enlightened us, there were people making DB-tubed, Nervex-lugged on every other street in the heyday of British lightweights. Chances are yours is 50s, I reckon.

I miss my ancient path frame, should never have sold it.

thanks for the comments.

yea rourke explained that the number on the frame was already a hundred or so higher than they've made, so what with the evident age its clear that its not one of theirs and was made quite awhile before.
I'm thinking maybe it was re-sprayed by them? trying to give the seller the benefit of the doubt.

DB-tubed meaning double butted i take it?
there aren't any tubing decals on it, any suggestions how i can at least estimate the tubing?

i'm looking forward to having a fun summer build, debating over whether to chop the mudguard eyelets off or not.
would look better without i think, but if i do then i cant keep the frame as a winter bike later. hmm so many options...

also, can anyone see the pictures as embedded? i can when i first post them but then they disappear

Can just see as a link, interested to know if you find out what frame this is

Dave the pictures are just too big to embed. Here they are shrunk a bit:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/nyi4x0.jpg

http://oi41.tinypic.com/eiozft.jpg

http://oi43.tinypic.com/acg504.jpg

I'm thinking maybe it was re-sprayed by them? trying to give the seller the benefit of the doubt.

this is common, i doubt the seller would try and rip you off in that way (maybe if they'd put colnago stickers on it...)

frame looks great, i wouldn't chop the mudguard mounts off personally (who's going to notice them?)

in terms of identifying tubing, seatpost size is a helpful measurement. my 531db frame was 27.2, but this can vary; i'm sure there's something on the internet to help you work it out.

don't strip the paint off it!

Alas i just spent the weekend with a can of paint stripper and some wire wool.

I've no regrets though since it exposed on the bb shell the initials M N stamped above the serial number.

(cheers tody.d for the heads up on re-sizing)

i little bit of google research suggets that this could mean the frame was made by one Major Nichols.
found quite a nice load of information here: http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/majornichols.html

if it is a major nichols bike and ive understood the system he used to number them, then this frame was the 8th frame built in 1959.

from classiclightweights,
"Major’s frames carry the frame number on the bottom bracket. There is a prefix MN followed by, or below which was, a four or five digit production number, consisting of the year as the first two digits then that year’s bike production number in annual sequence. Usually the forks carried only the current year’s production number."
the forks are indeed stamped '908'

Very rare these as i'm sure you've read. Especially track. I'd give 3 Rourkes for one.

Great find that must have made all the stripping worth it, nice reading the history, sounds like you have something far more interesting than what you brought!

I look forward to following the build

polished up the forks this evening, been having an internal debate over whether to go try and restore or just leave it bare metal.
in the end the fact that i dont have the money needed made the decision for me.
anyway, here is what the forks look like

i reckon they were chromed about 3/4 of the way up, hence the distinct line where there is pitting, possibly chromed crowns as well.

plan is keep the frame bare for now (and lacquered to protect it) and when i find some $ go for a pro restored paint job

frame looks great, i wouldn't chop the mudguard mounts off personally (who's going to notice them?)

yea i'm gonna leave them, especially after readin this...

"Den wanted a pure racing frame, with close clearances and no mudguard eyes. Major's reponse to the last item was 'Don't be bloody daft, do you think it's never going to bloody well rain?'."

absolutely amazing, would kill for a find like that, especially when you discover the character who made your frame and he turns out to be a salt!

nice one.

finally finished getting all the paint of and polishing up the frame.

i also found an 'A' stamped on the seat cluster lug, anyone know if this means anything?

What are the building plans? Frame looks very cool!

lovely frame, sounds like the seller got short changed rather than you got ripped off. I've no idea how much you won it for but it was probably a bargain, well done. I look forward to following the build.

yea i definitely think i got the better deal, realising it wasnt a rourke looked like it was gonna but a bit of a downers on the whole first track/path frame experience, but it all worked out for the best.
Thats if its a Major Nichols, all the evidence points that way, and short of finding another frame builder who stamped their frames the same way it seems unlikely that i'll find evidence to the contrary, but im not sure how to get conclusive proof...

As for the build itself, ideally i'm gonna try do a restoration job, classiclightweights says that Major liked to paint his frames brightly with contrasting colour bands, and tricolour lug-lining.
however, i dont have the funds for this, so for the moment im gonna leave it bare metal and build it up with parts off other bikes and various spares.
Then when i have the money i'll re-build it properly
im also very keen to actually ride it and see how it feels

I'll stick some pictures up a bit later of what ive collected so far

gonna use this saddle and seatpost

this buttery smooth campag wheel that i bought nos for another project that never happened

and these spare bits from my bits box

just need a stem really, oh and a front wheel.
gonna try and get something that i'd be happy keeping even after ive started doing the proper restoration on the frame

If you contact me I could give you the email of Alvin Smith who wrote a lot about M N for our website (C L). Being a vintage collector he will say you should restore it period correct, but it is your frame to do what you like. There are a couple of M N in Readers' Bikes as well - have you seen them?................Peter

ideally i would like to restore it period correct, so far my lack of knowledge is a bit of a hindrance but ive been cruising through hilarystone's website to try get some ideas.

i haven't seen the M Ns in readers bikes, im gonna try find them, thanks for the heads up, i'm pming you aswell for more info on alvin.
thanks

I like the idea of building it up a bit more modern, will look good with those cranks.

Good thread. Well done Skully for guessing the decade.

Ithangyouverrmuch