Shimano bb + miche primato cranks = ok?

thinking of buying some miche primato cranks, however will my BB (cant seem to find my tool but on the outside it reads > shimano 36x24T 70) work with it?

No, shimano is JIS taper, miche is ISO taper, they won't go.

They will, see http://www.lfgss.com/thread3372-8.html#post2197661 for several examples of people using Miche cranks with 107mm JIS BBs, plus circumstantial evidence that when Miche changed their BB from 110 to 107, it was because they were now sourcing them from Taiwan in JIS spec.

Also, UTFS, there's plenty of prior discussion of this.

Yes, it will work. My previous query on this was resolved by a 107mm un54 which fitted great. ^Thanks.

They will, see http://www.lfgss.com/thread3372-8.html#post2197661 for several examples of people using Miche cranks with 107mm JIS BBs, plus circumstantial evidence that when Miche changed their BB from 110 to 107, it was because they were now sourcing them from Taiwan in JIS spec.

Also, UTFS, there's plenty of prior discussion of this.

The Miche web site says its ISO??

The Miche website is living in the past; they probably still believe the spurious data on Sheldon Brown about the supposed huge difference between JIS and ISO axles too. We've been through all this a hundred times from every angle, but the takeaway is that Miche cranks work just fine on 107mm JIS axles.

These kind of things can be easily settled with a digital calipers, Ill try get my hands on a miche 107 and check it against a un55 and stronglight jis(kinex). Only iso I have is a modern campy 111mm
miche dont seem to try very hard, their hubs could be so much nicer with better locknuts and silver dust cap,axles, maybe polish the hub shells to mirror shine.

I know theres lots of info on jis and iso but there needs to be something definitive including the various NJS 109mm axles and suntour 109mm. Njs is said to be iso by some and others say in between jis and iso. Pre iso (1970/80s)stronglight taper was compatible with campy and sugino.

Accurate drawings and details of the tapers would be nice. And how much of the crank is supposed to fit on axle, its easy to tighten the bolt too much.

Also it makes sense that 107mm would be jis as they tend to go 103,107,110,113,115,118.. and campy iso 102,109,111,115..

They'll fit, but they won't fit properly. As it's been mentioned, the JIS and ISO tapers are different shapes and the Miche cranks won't fully sit on the JIS bottom brackets.

I've got a Miche chainset and have tried them on a Shimano UN BB, and they sit a couple of millimeters further out than they do on a Miche BB.

get a Kinex 107 bb from velosolo.

These kind of things can be easily settled with a digital calipers,

I already did that, some years ago (when rec.bicycles.tech was the centre for such discussions)

Here's the answer, got by measuring Campag and Shimano axles:

JIS taper = 2°
ISO taper = 2°

JIS square at end of taper = 12.7mm
ISO square at end of taper = 12.7mm

ISO axle has a 1mm x 45° chamfer beyond the end of the 2° taper. This results in an overall length 2mm greater than a JIS axle of the same fit. In extreme circumstances, your crank bolts can bottom out on this extension if the crank was designed without taking it into account. In general, distance between the cranks will be 2mm less if you use an ISO BB compared with a JIS BB of the same nominal length. Assuming a symmetrical BB, this means a chainline moved inboard 1mm if you replace a 110mm JIS BB with a 110mm ISO one.

As it's been mentioned, the JIS and ISO tapers are different shapes

No they aren't. It was mentioned about 100 years ago by Sheldon Brown, and everybody has taken his word for it ever since without bothering to check for themselves. The advice on http://sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html is both wrong and self-contradictory. If it were really the case that

If you install an ISO crank on a J.I.S. spindle, it will sit about 4.5 mm farther out than it would on an ISO spindle of the same length.

Confersely, if you install a J.I.S. crank on an ISO spindle, it will wind up about 4.5 mm farther in than it would on a J.I.S spindle of the same length.

then there is absolutely no possibility that it would also be true that

I have a lot of experience mixing ISO/J.I.S. in both directions on my own personal bikes, and it as never given me a lick of trouble.

^ I don't see a contradiction in those statements. The reason why Sheldon never got "a lick of trouble" is that he was fully aware of the difference in dimensions and used the 4.5mm effect to his advantage ("...gives the desired chainline).

In conclusion, you've given no compelling evidence to back up your assertion that the advice on said page is "wrong and self-contradictory".

Look at a square taper crank assembled onto the axle. Do you really believe that there is scope to move it 4.5mm either one way or the other and not have "a lick of trouble"? One way it will be all but unsupported, the other the axle will be poking out of the crank where the bolt head should be.

I don't really care whether you believe it or not, but I've sat here with both axles (in fact at least 2 Campag and several Shimano and other JIS) in my hand and measured them at the same time with the same digital Vernier, both ends and both axes, and they are the same size.

Without wanting to pour more petrol on this topic, I can only speak from my own experience. When doing my first build, I naively bought a shimano 107mm bb for a Primato crank and the chain line was way out. After conceding to buying the (supposedly inferior) miche 107mm bb instead, the difference was massively noticeable to the point of the chainline being near perfect, hence my original opinion that the two tapers are different.

I now find myself trawling the topic again as a new frame means I need a wider bb and am looking for a replacement? Do miche still do the 110mm version, or would I have to go down the campy veloce route? Are there any other alternatives, other than Phil?

The Miche BB doesn't have a defined chainline, the whole thing can be freely moved from side to side.

That the chainline is different doesn't tell us that the taper is different, since chainline can be different for identical axle lengths according to whether the axle is symmetrically disposed.

Also, of course, if you actually wanted a predictable chain line you wouldn't rely for axial positioning of the ring on a tapered axle, since the final assembly dimensions are highly dependent on interface lubrication and bolt tension, not to mention the high multiplier between diameter tolerance and axial positioning accuracy. In short, square taper is outdated shit.

Are there any other alternatives?

BB-UN55, in 107,110,113, or 118mm axle length
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=71369

If you want to dial in the chainline inwards, get the 73mm shell version and put a <2.5mm spacer under the drive side cup.

If you want to dial in the chainline outwards, get the 68mm shell version and put a <2.5mm spacer under the drive side cup.

With some combination of the above, your chainline can be as precise as half the thinnest shim in your armoury. Since you can easily make 0.4mm BB shims, worst case chainline error is ±0.2mm, although you could get closer by using different shim thicknesses.

I recently fucked the tapers on my Da 7600s, using campag centaur 111 :(
Installed a 'Tifosi 111mm ISO taper bb', the cheapo ones with carbon shell. This has currently remedied my fucked taper problems and given a spot on chainline (Goldtec hub), better than with Campy bb.

Sorry for bring up the old post! What is the exact Miche advanced JIS crank chainline w/f JIS 107.5mm BB? Will this crankset+FSA chainring+Phil Wood 108mm JIS BB give me 42mm chainline?