Dura Ace track cog chainline question / right cog for Phil hub

Hi,

just bought a nice set of Phil hubs from Pistoffski yesterday (double fixed), and now I am wondering what 1/8" cog to put on to get a flawless chainline.
My chainset is 1/8" and 42mm at the front, so I want exactly that at the rear as well.

I measured the distance between mid-of-phil and shoulder to 36mm, so the cog needs to have a chainline (shoulder to mid-of-teeth) of 6mm.

So I looked up Sheldon's cog measurements at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline.html and realised that there are not too many cogs with a 6mm chainline.

The phil cogs obviously are one of them, but as phil cogs are ridiculously expensive I am thinking of alternatives. EAI/Campa is 0.5 too wide, Surly not recommended by PW, so I am still thinking of Dura Ace because I do believe that the measurement for DA in that table is wrong if I remember correctly.

Could anyone with a DA 1/8" cog do me a favour and take callipers and measure their cog chainline (shoulder to mid-of-teeth)?

BTW, are all DA track cogs automatically model no. SS-7600 or are the NJS stamped ones a different model?
If you take a measure, please let me know if it's NJS stamped or not, would be very helpful

Thanks
jetski

Search for the "transmission database" thread for setups that work.
Will probably answer your question.

Thanks, I know the transmission database but it does not help in this case.

Get a Phil cog, you won't regret it...

^real world application of component combinations more useful that the search for the mythical perfect chainline; e.g. have you had your frame's dropout alignment checked?

Have a look at 0.5mm on a ruler, hold the ruler 41 cm away from you and ask whether you think it's going to make a blind bit of difference for a chain running from chainring to cog.

You will need to factor in your cranks too.

Have a look at the transmission database

I currently run Sugino 75 (cranks) + Campag Veloce 111mm (BB) + Phil Wood (hub) + EAI Superstar (cog). I have run the standard EAI too and a Phil.

Yes, this gives 42.5mm, but to be honest 0.5mm is not going to cause the world to stop revolving.

Initially, I ran a Phil BB and dialled it in till it was spot on. Said BB then broke and I couldn't be arsed spending the money to replace it.

You will also need to bear in mind that DA cogs don't come any bigger than 16t.

I really rate EAI Cogs. The standard is fine, but I have had the best wear out of the Superstar. I mangled (sharktoothed) my Phil cog in less than a year.

If I ran cranks with a 44mm chainline and a 42mm hub is it going to be truly awful or just a bit noisy?

^real world application of component combinations more useful that the search for the mythical perfect chainline; e.g. have you had your frame's dropout alignment checked?

Have a look at 0.5mm on a ruler, hold the ruler 41 cm away from you and ask whether you think it's going to make a blind bit of difference for a chain running from chainring to cog.

I know that real world measures are normally better, but in my case I am lucky that my frame's BB shell/dropout alignment is almost exactly spot-on, so I can actually go for these theoretical thoughts.
The thing is also that I do not know if any of the transmission database's bikes are spot-on or slightly off, so it's hard to judge if a setup will work for me as well.

Building bikes is a great lesson in OCD. Do you count when you walk? How many times do you clean your hands when you clean your bicycle?

My answers are yes, and 70.

If I ran cranks with a 44mm chainline and a 42mm hub is it going to be truly awful or just a bit noisy?

Depends on your chain. If you run a Izumi Super Tough, your bike will sound like a chainsaw even if your chainline is spot on.

But you know this Dov. Are you fishing?

I was asking for DA because I know that PW was recommending DA cogs before the Phil cogs existed, so this would be a weird recommendation if it would give you a >43mm chainline, so I guess the measurement in Sheldons table is either wrong or refers to a different DA track cog, hence the question about eventual differences between NJS and non-NJS DA track cogs.

jetski, build it, ride it, enjoy it. will it really bother you that much if your chainline is .5mm out? Really! And if its is .5mm out will it affect how you ride it? How it rides?
Is this a bike for everyday riding or a show pony rig that will never see dirt or rain or a lock?
But in answer to your question on my single sided phils, I rocked a phil cog, which wore out kinda quick on the everyday ride,it was never swapped out as the bike was bent before it was required and on the travelling bike, the fixed/fixed phils have got a white industries double freewheel on one side 3/32, and a surly 3/32 fixed cog on t'other. Using Sugino RD cranks, chainline is fine, and got me through a world tour of riding...

hope the deliberation over this doesn't stop you enjoying the bike as it was intended..

The thing is also that I do not know if any of the transmission database's bikes are spot-on or slightly off, so it's hard to judge if a setup will work for me as well.

Good point, but I think that the amount of data in the thread shows common setups that are working well for a bunch of people. Of course, the main assumption is that people only include their setups that work well...

To be honest what concerns me more about EAI cogs isn't the 0.5mm, but the 'warning' on the PW website. I know how many people are still using EAI on phils without any problems for years, but why the hell do PW then advise against them so clearly??

my house mates chainline is out by about 3mm. Never had a single problem with it. Just ride it.

To be honest what concerns me more about EAI cogs isn't the 0.5mm, but the 'warning' on the PW website. I know how many people are still using EAI on phils without any problems for years, but why the hell do PW then advise against them so clearly??

I had never seen the warning. My lockring does hang outboard a bit. I also stripped the lockring threads. Expensive! I just thought it was my piss poor mechanical skills. Which it was to be fair.

I suppose there is a case to be made for DA as they are very good and half the price of EAI. The 16t problem persists though.

Unless you are building a bike to ride on the track.

Hmm, never seen the warning either. Ran an EAI on a Phil hub for a year or so without issue. Didn't strip the lockring threads either.

I thought DA cogs were a lot thinner than EAI - they don't have the shoulder against the hub?

The warning is here: http://www.philwood.com/products/hubspgs/trackhubs.php

The question is if this warning only refers to the more expensive EAI cogs (the 'plated' ones) or to the normal black one as well?

I suppose there is a case to be made for DA as they are very good and half the price of EAI. The 16t problem persists though.

Unless you are building a bike to ride on the track.

16t would be perfect for me as I am normally running 45x16 in the city anyway.

Depends on your chain. If you run a Izumi Super Tough, your bike will sound like a chainsaw even if your chainline is spot on.

But you know this Dov. Are you fishing?

not at all, I just want to but a set of these motherfuckers

The chainline on a couple of my bikes are out and it's fine. I'm not sure by how much but it's enough to see it if you eye it up, so at least 1 or 2mm. I genuinely doubt even a 'perfect' chainline on paper gets closer than 0.5mm in practice as there are so many factors at play.

Those DXR cranks give a 44mm chainline so I figured a 1mm spacer hub side of the track cog should bring it inline enough to be bloody close.

Thoughts people?

Well I just ordered a DA cog... we'll see how it performs on the Phils, can't be too bad.

normal peddling will deflect the front of the drive (cranks, BB, chainring) by a lot more than 0.5mm

The GB team track bikes are 'out' by about 3mm