Miche chainset/BB chainline weirdness

Hi,

I just had a look at the chainline database thread where I found this:

"46mm = Miche (Condor-branded) + Miche 107mm (cups adjusted 2mm towards drivechain) = eeehhhh"

So would this mean that the combination of a Miche crank and a standard Miche 107mm BB actually leads to a 44mm (46 minus 2) chainline?

As Miche rear hubs always have a 42mm chainline like most other track hubs, I am really wondering why Miche drifts away from that value at the front?

Could someone with a Miche Primato (not advanced) chainset and 107mm BB please measure their front chainline?

EDIT: is it 44 to be somewhere in between to serve both 42 and 46 mm rear hubs?

Thanks

jetski

I've had a right old saga with all this. Originally I put Miche Primato Advanced cranks + Miche 107 mm on my Bob Jackson. When centralised, the BB put the spider too close to the chainstay (chainstays not indented on the BJ). I'd say, from my recollections, that when centralised that combo gives 43 mm at the front.

In order to get sufficient chainstay clearance I'd havehad to bias the BB to the drive side and thus the chainline would have been more suited to a Goldtec hub, but not quite right for that either...

In other words, I could not get the required 42-ish mm chain-line for my hub due to 1) slightly weird Miche crank design and 2) straight non-indented chainstay.

What I am finding, as I learn more about this, is that in fact many hubs that claim to be 42 mm are not. Also, you can make a substantial difference at the back through choice of sprocket - if you look on Sheldon his table shows the variation.

Another source of variation is slight differences in BB shell width.

There is a lot of trial and error involved in getting it just right.

Edit: so in answer to your question, yeah, I think you are right: Miche / Miche gives more that 42 mm in my experience, 1 - 2 mm more.

I am asking because I have a track frame here and the rear hub is a Miche Primato and the chainline actually measures exactly 42mm in combination with a Miche sprocket, but the combination at the front (Primato chainset as well, but unknown BB) gives 46mm, so the BB needs to be changed as it's a non adjustable one. I do not like the thought to go and buy a Primato 107mm BB just to find out that it's not 42mm by default. Everything Primato should result in a 42mm chainline everywhere, or do I ask for too much?
I mean if I have to adjust the Primato BB by 2mm towards the nondrive side that's okay as my chainstays have enough clearance left towards the cranks, but I would rather prefer to buy a BB that gives me the 42mm by default together with the (classic Primato, not advanced) chainset, without the need to adjust it to the left.

Let me know if you or anyone else found a decent BB to go with the old Primato chainset.

jetski

Sorry i can't offer help with the non-adjustable Miche BB but i've been running the Primato BB and Advanced cranks and found that the 107mm BB does indeed put the cranks too far out, roughly giving prehaps a 44/45mm chainline?

I simply adjust the BB to the non-drive side by about 2mm and hey presto a perfect chainline!

The problem is that Miche cranks use an ISO taper so your only options for BB are;

Campag who do a 111mm version, which is going to be even worse than a 107 Miche in terms of chainline.

Miche adjustable BB 107mm adjusted slightly depending on hub/sproket choice

Phil Wood BB which comes with adjustable cups but is also ££££££££££££!

Doesn't really answer your original question i'm afraid but lays down some options i hope!

Thanks for confirming my assumption, so that seems actually to be as I thought. weird. I ordered the adjustable miche BB now and will handle it in the same way you did.

I simply adjust the BB to the non-drive side by about 2mm and hey presto a perfect chainline!

what do you mean? how do you adjust it?

Thanks for the reply OldSkool. Adjusting the BB 2 mm to the left would be a solution usually, but on my Bob Jackson this brings part of the crank spider too close to the chainstay.

As you say, options are limited. My interim solution was to use a Campag 111 mm anyway, while gathering fundage for a better set-up. Ended up the same as the 107 Miche in my case (i.e. 2 mm out). With an EAI cog on my System EX it was just about bearable.

I am about to fit a Campa Pista crankset (and Phil Wood hub) and I can already see, from a trial fit, that it is going to work out well. Specifically, Campy Pista cranks will allow me to achieve the desired chainline at the front while still clearing the chainstay nicely. That was impossible with the Miche / Miche.

(Obviously if you have chainstays that are indented / shaped then moving a Miche BB 2 mm to the left is no problem).

Sorry i can't offer help with the non-adjustable Miche BB but i've been running the Primato BB and Advanced cranks and found that the 107mm BB does indeed put the cranks too far out, roughly giving prehaps a 44/45mm chainline?

I simply adjust the BB to the non-drive side by about 2mm and hey presto a perfect chainline!

The problem is that Miche cranks use an ISO taper so your only options for BB are;

Campag who do a 111mm version, which is going to be even worse than a 107 Miche in terms of chainline.

Miche adjustable BB 107mm adjusted slightly depending on hub/sproket choice

Phil Wood BB which comes with adjustable cups but is also ££££££££££££!

Doesn't really answer your original question i'm afraid but lays down some options i hope!

what do you mean? how do you adjust it?

The Miche cups do not have flanges (same idea as Phil Wood BBs) and work by tightening up against the BB cartridge itself rather than onto the faces of the BB shell. So you can adjust the position of the BB axle by setting it up so that both cups are over to one side slightly.

This^^

I must add the Miche BB is a good BB for all the flak it seems to get. Do bear in mind that the seals aren't that great on the cartridge itself and if commuting on it (like me) it will start to creak and get rough after 9months to a year of punishment. It is a track BB after all, not a sealed Shimano UN54 so i don't know why people expect it to be!?

Also grease the cups VERY well when installing as they are aluminium and mine recently seized into my frame and the BB tool stripped the threads meaning a week of soacking the BB in casutic soda to dissolve the cups leaving the frame and paintwork in tact :-)

If you torque it up properly you'll have no issues with it coming loose, which seems to be a bug bear of those with Italian threaded BB's but i can only comment on English threads from personal experience.

Is it possible to use the Miche adjustable cups with a different, high quality cartridge? Might be a lot cheaper than buying a Phil?

Don't know mate, to be honest i doubt it as the cups are a perfect fit around the cartridge and i would have thought other manufacturers use slightly different sizes, probably for this exact reason.

hey there jetski, i know your post was around 7 years ago but i have the exact same problem at the moment. my chainline infront is around 50 mm with the old miche primato crankset, do you have any tips on which bb to buy?

50mm is quite a ways out, what bb are you using?

Im not sure, its a bb my local bike store put in for my last crank.. i think it is ISO and the crank is jis, so that might make it stand so far out... but anyway i have the older miche pistard crank, do you have any proper bb recommendations?

So I know that Miche did change the taper they used on their system but 1) I thought the older ones were iso, newer ones jis and 2) the only actual change would have been the B.B. wouldn’t it? The taper in the cranks will have stayed the same.

I reckon a 107mm Shimano bb would see you right.

I think changing the bb is the most sensible thing to do aswell, wouldnt it be smarter to go for the miche bb?

Using a miche bb is never a good idea.

Ah okay, i thought to match the crank.. but then ill go for the Shimano one

I’m half joking.

The newer ones with the flanged driveside cup are alright, the ‘adjustable’ ones are utter mince and should be avoided at all cost.

I thought the Miche ones were quite a bit dearer than Shimano but I’ve just looked and that’s only a couple quid in it. Shimano are still cheaper though and given the well proven reliability of the un5x series, that’d be my recommendation.

so these are utter crap
https://www.internet-bikes.com/3051-michte-trapas-primato-jis-107-297-mm/?dfw_tracker=12092-3051&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrKqi3v3o2AIVzLDtCh1JWwGoEAQYBCABEgLpVvD_BwE

and these are meh
https://www.giga-bikes.nl/129674-miche-trapas-team-bsa-107-x-68-mm/

thanks for the help anyway.. im learning lots of new stuff because of all this going wrong

Yup.

The ones that are meh can also be a pain in the cock to install as the bearings and spacer can rattle and wobble within the cups a bit. Makes aligning the drive and non drive sides difficult.