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nothing compared to the number of russians who died in WWII
the situation could easily have been avoided.
if you don't want to get bombed don't vote for a party that likes to ethnic cleanse and invade neighboring countries.The Soviets lost about 20 million but their behaviour is open to question between 1939 and 1941 especially their invasion of Poland in 1939.
Had the western democracies bit the bullet in Spain it could have been very different.
Germany believed they would not get bombed!
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if you don't want to get bombed don't vote for a party that likes to ethnic cleanse and invade neighboring countries.
Bit black & white, isn't it?
Firstly, not everybody was in SS, SA and NSDAP. Secondly, who suffered during the carpet bombings the most were civilians - women and children.
And what about Soviet attrocities during the war inflicted on the German POWs and civilians, Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Finns, Belorussians, Croats, Romanians, Hungarians, Czechs?
It was the World War and a cruel one. -
Bit black & white, isn't it?
Firstly, not everybody was in SS, SA and NSDAP. Secondly, who suffered during the carpet bombings the most were civilians - women and children.
And what about Soviet attrocities during the war inflicted on the German POWs and civilians, Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Finns, Belorussians, Croats, Romanians, Hungarians, Czechs?
It was the World War and a cruel one.But was it not a Total War?.....All in the front line combatants and civilian?....who made the weapons?....A RAF Lanc rear gunner put it this way 'destroy the factories, they build new factories but kill the workers and hats an end of it'.....Harsh but pragmatic.
Yes the Soviets did some terrible things the rape of German women in 1945 was a disgrace and tolerated by Stalin. But as for the treatment of German pows that was retribution for the treatment of soviet pows in 1941. The Baltic state civilians did enough damge to their Jewish neighbours.....as you say it was a cruel war.....and some of the issues you raise are post 1945.
Yes, not all Germans were active nazis but they voted for them and by and large indifferent to there fate and rejoiced over the victories.
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What I'm saying is - there's blood on hands of all those involved.
There was also a lot of injustice and stupid stereotypes created after the war. Like for example soldiers of SS Waffen which were from the late conscript in 1944 (not the select elite Nazi core) were refused pensions, because their units were branded as a part of criminal organisation, even though they were not taking part in the Holocaust per se. The same in countries like Poland, were masses of soldiers who fought on the West front were thrown to jails in Poland and those who stayed in the UK refused war pensions (dozens of thousands of them)
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It's not like all in the UK would give their lives for the Labour...
We all know the mechanism behind these regimes.
It would be very easy to nuke the Iran right now, but what about those, who regularly protest on the streets, what about those, who simply live in fear and just live their lives on a day to day basis, what about the young ones, who haven't made their political decisions yet?
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er, hitler only won initially by a small majority, and then got 2/3rds vote to make him a dictator. hardly enough to say "they" voted for him.
murder of civilians is always a fucking travesty.
His were the biggest party and the left were hopelessly divided...the Conservatives thouhgt they could control Hitler which they could not.....plus most Germans were indifferent to fate of jews and fought for the regime and sadly bombs cannot differentiate between the good and the bad.
Killing civilians is never nice but it could not be avoided as civilians were involved in war industries....but perhaps had the western democracies done more before 1939 then things could have been different.
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It's not like all in the UK would give their lives for the Labour...
We all know the mechanism behind these regimes.
It would be very easy to nuke the Iran right now, but what about those, who regularly protest on the streets, what about those, who simply live in the fear and just live their lives on a day to day basis, what about the young ones, who haven't made their political decisions yet?
There are differnces about WW2 and Iran....in WW2 Britain's existence was in doubt and during the dark years from 1939 to 1943....the only way the British could get at Germany directly was through the bombing campaign and not always a success [battle of Berlin]. the German opposition were weak and fragmented and really wanted some sort of compact with the west to attack the USSR. Jews in Germany preferred death at the hands of the RAF than face nazi death camps as they believed Nazi germany was being destroyed.....eggs and omelettes!
Speaking as a Jew, Iran is a backward looking theocracy and potentially very dangerous. Holocaust denial is central to their attitudes towards Jews.....Yet I would not advocate the use of nuclear weapons...period. so i question your comment about Hiroshima being less important than Dresden....because the A-bomb [replaced later by the H-bomb] ushered in a much more dangerous age inc the cold war and beyond. Moreover the deaths in Hiroshima did not end on 6 August 1945...it damged many of the survivors DNA causing genetic mutations that left clusters of cancers for generations afterwards [as in Nagasaki].
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This has got to be another one for ignore
Why? This is not a *tribute *thread but a debate based on issues without being personal. is not morality and war not worth discussing?
But ignore if you want to.
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;p
Hmmmm a bit of naughty editing here!
Had it been down to me....Germany would have been razed to the ground by 1945 and I would take responsibility for my actions.....My feeling is clear on Dresden...succesful raid and finally broke German resistance.
Actually i'm not to blame as i was born in 1956!
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If the Germans had won you wouldn't be here ;p
Too bloody right but then i would not have known that...if you know what i mean
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i agree that not enforcing the treaty of versailles was a big mistake. even though i think the terms of the treaty were too harsh, it would have been prudent to ask the question "hmmm a fascist dictator is building up military equipment and personell way beyond the allowed levels, i wonder what for?"
the issue of collateral damage is one that i think western countries have a superiority complex over, <1000 uk residents killed by islamist terrorists is used as part justification for two wars which have caused the deaths of >100,000 civilians, yet those casualties seem much less relevant to politicians.
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I like riding my bikes...
So do i!
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About
65th Aniversary of the RAF's raid on Dresden
Posted by
@marxist_vulcan
Tonight will be 65 years since Dresden was razed to the ground by the RAF [followed by further raids by the USAAF and the RAF.
The war still going on and Germany had 'new' weapons in the offing, the Soviet Union wanted the attack and it was a major administrative centre for Saxony. The town housed many key industries and was not an open city as some have suggested. Yet Bomber Command has been treated like a pariah due to the weasel words of Churchill with one eye on peace and his place in history
The casualties were about 40,000 killed not what David Irving suggested-100,000.
It was a *successful *raid and not unlike many others on the Ruhr or Hamburg [July 1943-40,000 killed or Hiroshima, 66,000 killed and Nagasaki, 39,000 killed. Yet Dresden is held up as the yardstick of the aerial bombers work.
So why the fuss over Dresden? In my book it was not a war crime [will discuss that one]....We must not forget the German attacks upon Guernica [Spanish Civil War Warsaw, Rotterdam and London. Just another raid that circumstances [good weather and an old town centre] led to a massive firestorm. I do not rejoice in the deaths of so many civilians including children but it was a war and one that Britain was fighting for its survival. Nasty things happen in war and WW2 was a particularly nasty war .
Discuss!