27 inch wheels and 700 wheels, what's the story?

This had never really occurred to me before (cos i iz fik) but what are the main differences between 27s and 700s apart from size (27s being slightly bigger I take it)? When did the shift take place for bike builders/manufacturers and why? Is it still possible to get hold of good new 27 inch rims? Thanks.

:)

SJS do 27" (630) rims and tyres:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/category-27-rim-(630)-170.htm
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/category-27-(630)-203.htm

Wiggle also have a few cheap 27 x 1 1/4 tyres in stock (I bought some yesterday). I'd be interested to hear if anyone sells full mudguards for 27" wheels still though, because the 700c ones never fit without rubbing the tyre.

Probably the failing British bike industry played a big part in 27" wheels demise, that and the rise of metrication i line with the rest of Europe.

I've heard it said this was something to do with dunlop, making tyres that were a proprietary size, to corner the British market.

m_a_r_i_e My fave mudguards, Salmon Super Profil, fit 27 or 700 equally well, as they are aluminium and you can easily coax them into the right shape (partly cos they are almost flat section). They fit tyres up to 25c i.e. they are super narrow and sexy. Here they are on 700s but I promise you they fit 27s excellently

Get them here. You have to phone the guy to get them, no internet or emails (the guy's a proper luddite)

+1 on sjs for rims, they have lots of good 27s at the moment.

Thanks Skully, I thought alu might be the way to go, the plastic 700c ones I've tried (unsuprisingly) just can't be wrestled into the right shape.

Just wanted to add a thumbs up for wiggle on the 27" tyres too though - I ordered them yesterday afternoon (with £5 discount, making them cheaper than SJS) and they've just turned up on my desk a second ago, using the free postage option.

Some great info here, cheers. So, roughly when did manufacturers swap over from 27 to 700, in the sixties or seventies? Am I right in thinking newer 700s are slightly bigger as 70cm = 27.6inches.

Nope, God knows why, but 700s (also, confusingly, sometimes called 28") are actually smaller than 27". Maybe one name is rim only, whereas one is for entire circumference with a nomimal tyre depth. Or some even more boring shit. Basically 622 (700) and 630 (27") are the more informative measurements to use. Especially as its all about what tyres you can use, in the end.

Yep throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s (I think) UK framebuilders were building for both sizes, according to taste. 27" Pretty much dead after '80, I would guess. 700 were standard all over Europe throughout.

My 1985 peugeot has 27" wheels. And it's french thread all over too. Double joy.

700 were standard all over Europe throughout.

Hmmm, I have an old Dutch track frame (Gazelle) from around the late 60s/early 70s but how can I tell if it originally took 27s or 700s? Is the above a known fact?

:s

a bit of a hijack, but is there a similar story with 26" and 650? Are they the same? I've heard conflicting info.

650 are diffrent to 26" mbt wheels google sheldon tyre sizes for more info

Sheldon says this:

26 x 1 (650 C) 571 mm Triathlon, time trial, small road bikes

I've inherited a 26" zipp 400, which has come from a TT frame, so from this I can assume it's the same as a 650 then?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/dylanji/untitled-1.jpg

Hmmm, I have an old Dutch track frame (Gazelle) from around the late 60s/early 70s but how can I tell if it originally took 27s or 700s? Is the above a known fact?

:s

I have been told by my dad, who was a racer back in the day, that all tubulars are 700 and always were, so if it was designed to take tubs rather than road tyres it will be 700. As it's a track frame I'd say that's more than likely.

i've been looking for mudguards too, I got those slick continental tyres from wiggle and they give you a wet arse very quickly. I left the local Evans very quickly after the guy tried to convince me that 27' are smaller than 700c, but I found these , apparently they come in a range of covers but I'm waiting to hear back from their sales people

It's all really easy:

26" < 27.5" < (28" = 29") < 27"

Don't thank me. Thank the bike industry.

As far as the naming standards go, tires were often originally named for their outside diameter, regardless of rim size. That's why the name of the tire size often has little to no correlation to the bead diameter (the rim size).

Basically whoever made the first tire for a given rim named the tire size based on the outside dimensions, regardless of the fact that other tires that would share the same rim would not have the same outer diameter.

I have been told by my dad, who was a racer back in the day, that all tubulars are 700 and always were, so if it was designed to take tubs rather than road tyres it will be 700. As it's a track frame I'd say that's more than likely.

Yep.. I'm a Dad'. And thats true. I can remember going from 27" totubular' (no other term around for that size) in the 70s and the wheels were smaller.. had to lower my brake pads etc. Not a Grandad yet but still trying to get used to the idea of 700 clinchers'. Back in the day that would have beenha hahaha... why?'=`wtf' today.

I have a 97 cannondale frame that I'm building up, I have Khamsin 700c wheels with campag veloce caliper brakes. It fits like a dream on the rear, but having realy trouble with forks (as it's 1 inch threaded!) I bougght some cheap tange forks, but I think they are touring forks becasue the caliper brakes don't reach, could buy long reach brakes but really want to keep the campag! could the forks be for 27 inch wheels?? I'm lost

They could be for 27" or some touring forks are made for long drop brakes (ultegra come in long drop I believe). Easiest option, got to be change the forks, it shouldn't be hard, or expensive.

a bit of a hijack, but is there a similar story with 26" and 650? Are they the same? I've heard conflicting info.

650 are diffrent to 26" mbt wheels google sheldon tyre sizes for more info

Sheldon says this:

26 x 1 (650 C) 571 mm Triathlon, time trial, small road bikes

I've inherited a 26" zipp 400, which has come from a TT frame, so from this I can assume it's the same as a 650 then?

The ERTO of a 650 wheel is 571 but a 26" is 559. There were some quite trick 26" road wheels in the mid 90's so the size is not limited to offroad wheels but I'm afraid they're more obscure when it comes to tyres. It was pretty common to have quite a bit of clearance on the front forks on a TT bike so you can often fit either 26" or 650c if you have a frame and are on the look out for a wheel. Tyres though, it would seem, are not interchangeable. A 1" road tyre comes up more like a 23c than a 25c in width though, go figure.

There are a couple of good rims still available new from the states. Sun CR18 and M13 II. the M13 are slightly better made apparently. SJS sell Jalco(anyone know if they're any good?) and ebay always has bankrupt pairs of wheels for £30. Nice pairs come up on ebay now and again as well, got my eye on some at the mo(dibs).

I reckon its worth the effort of finding the wheels if your frame was made for it, the huge gaps and general crappy proportions with 700c look awful IMO.
Was advised in BLB that they're impossible to get, won't stand up to londons roads, harder to keep true and would i like some velocitys instead? I left at that point. Shame, i thought they'd be down with the rare wheel status.

If anyone is interested I have a set of full mud guards for 27 1 1/4 wheels which I am throwing away if I can't give them away. If you are based in London or Birmingham I can facilitate a pick up.

This may be a very thick question, but I'm new to this game and willing to look daft.
I've just bought an old Peugeot frame (L1011 if that means anything) and looking to fix her up into a fixed gear, but how can I tell if it takes 700s or 27"?
Also, where is a good place to get a relatively cheap rear wheel that is set up as fixed - second hand or new.
Apologies if I sound a bit green - I am!

It's a European frame so it is more than likely that it is a 700C - but to be 100% sure, put in a wheel of that size and see how much clearance there is.
Compare these two photos:

The one on the left is a Raleigh that was designed for 27", the one on the right is for 700C (they are the same set of wheels).

I'm running a wheel building class in mid-June if you want to learn mechanics and save some £££ on new wheels.

Ahhh, interesting thread, and answered many of my queries... back to the drawing board for my old rusty bike...