Frame Building Market Research

so i want to do more of the frame building thing, but i need to do some market... since you lot are the market i get to ask you annoying questions:

For those of you who have bought frames what do you look for when picking a builder?

What parts of the process did you like? what could have been better?

which is more important a established name, or good quality?

since my name is no good for a bike company what do you think of N+1 Cycles (after the number of bikes you need)?

any other comments or thoughts?

established name and good quality come hand in hand - so if youre good quality then your name will become established

N+1 is a good name - not too sure if you need the cycles as well

N + 1....sounds like something i learnt in gcse lol

I (still) don't understand N + 1, on this forum.
I tried today to explain Bertrand Rusell's mathematical logic today. and failed miserably.

Chris, I need a nice pair of forks or an old Moser frame, can you make them? ( and how much?)
You can put N + 1 on the forks if you like, e^i(Pi) would be better.

I could, but im still waiting on the home office to let me back in the UK and would have to get tolled up to do it, so i would not be ready to take any orders for a while.

N+1= number of bikes you need
N= number of bikes you have

Ah, the N + 1 becomes clear (I think)

Forks aren't urgent, when you get back we can talk. Columbus tubes OK with you?; it's an old Moser frame.

Columbus would be fine, TIGed or Brazed? i honestly have no idea when i will be set up, except that it will be more then a month, probably two at the soonest after i get back and get all the visas sorted out.

Brazed (with lugs/fork crown, of course). As I said it completely non urgent, haven't even decided how much rake yet.
BTW I think Chris Crash sort of works as the name for a bike company.

yeah it was either crash bikes, or N+1=cycles or N+1 Cycles... dont know will have to think about logos and such

n+1 might be a bit too close to on one? when spoken aloud it's fairly similar to on one, especially since people are lazy and might ignore the '+', making it 'en one'... just a thought.
chris crash would be a good company name, but it depends on what sort of market you're going for? if it's just fixed and ss kids, then it's really good, but if you want something to make a name with and do this for the long run, you might want to keep 'crash' out of the name. the custom frame market is pretty tough, you'd need to market yourself to roadies and tourers, etc, and alot of people might not like having the word crash on their bike.

N1 could be a little like T1 (not track bikes but still a bike company)

I'm not trying to be a dick, but haven't you only built the one frame so far? If it was me then I'd build a few more for people at cost to build skills and get feedback from riders before building for profit.

For those of you who have bought frames what do you look for when picking a builder?

First hand accounts of how their bike rides/lasts and pictures of their handiwork (see Moyer frames)

What parts of the process did you like? what could have been better?

Like the whole speaking to someone knowledgeable who knows the implications of changes to frame geometry. Would grumble about waiting times but flip side to the coin is its given me the opportunity to collect nicer collection of parts than i would otherwise have

which is more important a established name, or good quality?

good quality although its hard to judge quality without an established name...

since my name is no good for a bike company what do you think of N+1 Cycles (after the number of bikes you need)?

sounds very new school...would expect something like those trackstar creations as opposed to something coming out of Mercian

I like a builder with a bit of history and tradition and am a sucker for Italian design so most of my bikes (I have 5 currently) follow that pattern. However, the factor I look for most is craftmanship - if your frames stand out from the crowd because of their build quality and attention to detail then I'd be interested.

Momentum I'm not trying to be a dick, but haven't you only built the one frame so far? If it was me then I'd build a few more for people at cost to build skills and get feedback from riders before building for profit.

Plus remember if you are selling the frame you will need insurance as well which will mean a big initial outlay. Not saying you will not beabe to do it one step at a time.

I am not 100% on this but I think that there are regulations regarding Acetylene and where you can have it. You might be of with the porta packs but the big bottles I think have restrictions. This would be hard to get round because of the gas supplies (main one in the uk is BOC). I know you can use propane / oxy mix for lugged construction so if you are not doing fillet brazing you'll be fine, but I am sure you already know all about that side of things, just wanted to mention the possible acetylene restriction problems.

There are hundreds of framebuilders in the UK - think i like most Mercian and Roberts - Mercian for the tradition, and Roberts for the customer service/geometry.

I spent £700 ordering a Mercian frame in the past and wasn't that impressed with the time they spent with me discussing the frame geometry... apart of the that, the frame was brilliant, they did every single detail i asked.

After spending so much money on a piece of metal (ended up never using it), i realized a few things:

• steel frames are bloody heavy;
  
• customs frame are damn expensive;
  
• (it's a personal opinion, don't take me wrong please) but i think order a custom frame is totally unnecessary considering the range of options available in the market, unless in special cases, like, you are a really tall rider, or a lady, a disabled rider, or you want to build a show bike
  
  
  

I am still considering ordering a custom frame for the enxt few months, but titanium - might choose Enigma as they are the only option in the UK (Setavento is now closed).

What about Sunday Cycles in Macclesfield?

I like supporting emergin businesses but for a frame I think that time is a good test of reliability and so I'd be wary of jumping in to get a frame in the first year or production unless you have adequate insurance to cover a warranty. After a year of good reviews I think I'd be happy enough with public opiinon that the build quality was good enough to not worry about a warranty. I love the idea of the whole thing and think it'd be an awesome thing to do but my custom will probably go to a more established builder if I buy a frame in the next year. After then (more likely as right now I have no money) I'd probably consider it.

Sorry about the lack of flow in the post.

Platini What about Sunday Cycles in Macclesfield?

Made in China it seems.

A lot of Ti frames, and almost all the reasonably priced ones, are made in China and resold here (Enigma, Van Nicolas, Setavanto etc). Another UK based option is Burls (I think his frames are welded in Russia).

Otherwise there's a fe people building in the US in Ti but the frames are £1k minimum - Merlin, Lynskey, IF etc

hassanr n+1 might be a bit too close to on one? when spoken aloud it's fairly similar to on one, especially since people are lazy and might ignore the '+', making it 'en one'... just a thought.

Good thinking Hassanr, N1 also appears to be a misnomer as you'll be building the frames (hopefully) in Hackney Wick not Angel.
Chris can we play around with some formulae as the idea is sound I think it just needs a little refining.

Object [quote]hassanr n+1 might be a bit too close to on one? when spoken aloud it's fairly similar to on one, especially since people are lazy and might ignore the '+', making it 'en one'... just a thought.

Good thinking Hassanr, N1 also appears to be a misnomer as you'll be building the frames (hopefully) in Hackney Wick not Angel.
Chris can we play around with some formulae as the idea is sound I think it just needs a little refining.[/quote]

Yeah but this is Crhsi Schra we're talking about.
He'll struggle to spell anything more complex than N+1...

If you buy a frame made by one expert framebuilder you're buying into his reputation and want to identify yourself with the craftsmanship he represents.

N+1 is a terrible name. How are you supposed to identify with a mathematical formula? How are you supposed to say it? is it a maker's name, a model name, or what? It implies mass-produced rationalism, not the emotive qualities of a hand-made product.

Chris Crash is an great name. It's personal, alliterative, mildly humourous, very distinctive, balanced (five letters each) and it refers to a fine tradition of having one guy's name on the frame.

That'll be twenty grand, please.

sundaycycles' frames are from the far east...still good frames tho. seen their pro team bikes in the flesh, looks very sharp! enigma (old omega?) i think are uk built, prob better if you want to fuss about build details.

or you can go find a taiwanese/chinese manufacturer. cheaper. contacted that manufacturer mentioned in the money-no-object thread. cheap Ti frames at US$650 delivered. not badly priced. i think they do custom sizing

kinda agree with roberto re the need for custom builds. it's more for show bikes or odd sizes. if i were to get one done, it would be primarily for the finer aesthetic details, lugs, cutouts, engravings, colour finish...uniqueness, originality.

I'll put my name down on the list. A guinea pig, if you will.