Die-In and Vigil at TfL HQ. Public

Is there somewhere I can go to read a coherent argument against 'go dutch' / copenhagenize plans?

I'm not sure there is one , proper segregation not blue paint is all these people want and I don't think it's so unreasonable

But it's fine if you aren't keen on segregation. I can't see how it wouldn't improve the experience

Is there somewhere I can go to read a coherent argument against 'go dutch' / copenhagenize plans?

The coherent argument is as I see it simple: taking cyclists off the road will reduce drivers' respect and awareness of them to zero. You'll end up with worse drivers, and worse cyclists, as a result.

That is true, drivers absolutely hate it when you take primary in Copenhagen to the point of shouting abuse from their vehicles.

Okay I'm going to say it one more time, we'll get no change in how drivers interact with cyclists until we enact Strict Liability Laws, which would put the onus on drivers to take care of those more vulnerable than themselves, rather than playing chicken or viewing you as an obstacle to them getting to their destination quicker.

Also cultural change will take years, and isn't something that will change overnight, see wearing seatbelts, eating your five a day, or recycling, and it definitely isn't going to change unless there is a bit of stick to get the change going.

All the arguments above are about trying to get something done now, without taking into account the biggest obstacle to change is modifying drivers behaviour, make them more aware, make them think before doing something dodge, make them think about us, as much as we think about them.

Just chanting for segregation and talking about infrastructure isn't enough. The big battle is to get motorists to change their behaviour.

That is true, drivers absolutely hate it when you take primary in Copenhagen to the point of shouting abuse from their vehicles.

I think a better way of protesting to die-ins, or even flash rides would be to organise a 'reclaim the lane day' (which sounds like the good old reclaim the streets protests). I have mentioned this before here and people suggested that it wouldn't work.

It is simple (though may take more guts from some people who aren't used to it). On an agreed date every commuter cyclists remains in the middle of the lane, without filtering through traffic but takes up the space of a car, two cyclist abreast maximum.

The riders would cycle at a their own speed just preventing drivers overtaking. This action wouldn't need any permission since people are not blocking streets. Another outcome of such an action would be that riders who hug the gutter normally get to feel what it is like to have a lot of space around them and may consider trying this way of riding on other occasions.

Bagsie not me.

edscoble - interesting, have to say i would probably take copenhagen's infrastructure & levels of acceptance even if it meant we had to fight some battles to still be able to ride primary (though i would probably still be in a cycle lane if it was decently wide, well-maintained, safe etc)

quick update on the event: there are now 1,047 people 'attending'

You're not allowed to ride on the road if there's a cycle path next to it, which you'll get fined for.

As this stuff tends to trickle to other campaigns elsewhere in the country, a few questions:

• We need Amsterdam levels of money spent on London's Cycling Safety NOW.
  
  

What is the Amsterdam level of spend?

• We need at least 2 formal Board Members on TfL Board.
  
  

How will this be decided & what powers will this give them?

• We need ALL Boroughs to be spending at least 10% of their Mayoral approved transport budgets spent on cycling infrastructure.
  
  

Is this in line with Amsterdam?

• We need all Borough and TfL Transport Heads qualified to deliver Dutch Style safety or be fired.
  
  

What is the recognised industry qualification and within what timescale must it be achieved? Who will bear the cost of the potential employment tribunals and unfair dismissal claims?

• Children, pensioners and inexperienced adults should not be forced to share space with HGVs and Buses.
  
  

Why not include experienced adults here?

• We need a FULL Integrated safely designed segregated cycle network in London ASAP.
  
  

What does this mean in reality?

• ALL dangerous junctions need to be redesigned to Dutch standards ASAP.
  
  

Will this solve anything without an accompanying educational programme around road user behavioural change (not to mention introduction of strict liability laws)?

(On the question of 'who represents us' well the LCC aren't perfect but at least they are active; haven't heard or seen anything from, say, Sustrans)

Sustrans had already released a statement about London Casualties on Nov 1st, with some calls for change. http://www.sustrans.org.uk/news/urgent-action-needed-london%E2%80%99s-road-casualties-soar

Also Melissa Henry was said to be appearing on a bbc breakfast discussion yesterday or today, that's national t.v. isn't it?

• We need a FULL Integrated safely designed segregated cycle network in London ASAP.
  
  

What does this mean in reality?

The problem is that Donnachadh McCarthy's view differ from the LCC, while the LCC want to "share space", he's not happy unless there's a 100% segregation on every single route in London, he dislike Cycle Training/Bikeability believing it to be a waste of time and money.

Okay I'm going to say it one more time, we'll get no change in how drivers interact with cyclists until we enact Strict Liability Laws, which would put the onus on drivers to take care of those more vulnerable than themselves, rather than playing chicken or viewing you as an obstacle to them getting to their destination quicker.

Also cultural change will take years, and isn't something that will change overnight, see wearing seatbelts, eating your five a day, or recycling, and it definitely isn't going to change unless there is a bit of stick to get the change going.

All the arguments above are about trying to get something done now, without taking into account the biggest obstacle to change is modifying drivers behaviour, make them more aware, make them think before doing something dodge, make them think about us, as much as we think about them.

Just chanting for segregation and talking about infrastructure isn't enough. The big battle is to get motorists to change their behaviour.

This ^ and it's big obstacle getting everyone to change their attitude and behaviour towards cyclists.

The problem is that Donnachadh McCarthy's view differ from the LCC, while the LCC want to "share space", he's not happy unless there's a 100% segregation on every single route in London, he dislike Cycle Training/Bikeability believing it to be a waste of time and money.

is that the person behind the alternativedft twitter account?

Can't says, but he would have remembered me from our last encounter...

All sounds a bit Rocky vs Apollo Creed between you two then Ed.

Tenner on Ed.

Yeah I'd probably win by just being on the road.

#sharingiscaring

Rep for Cornelius!

I like Reclaim The Lane, skydancer.

As this stuff tends to trickle to other campaigns elsewhere in the country, a few questions:

• Children, pensioners and inexperienced adults should not be forced to share space with HGVs and Buses.
  
  

Why not include experienced adults here?

I think to the point is that if you still wished to use the road ect them it's up to you but those that might not want to don't have to

• We need Amsterdam levels of money spent on London's Cycling Safety NOW.
  
  

What is the Amsterdam level of spend?

I think amsterdam spends around £30 pp a year on cycle related stuff ( off the top of my head don't quote me on it )

Point is when the Dutch people protested they had a government that listened, I forsee the teeniest bit of a problem with the same thing happening here.
Unfortunately this country is a bit celeb obsessed so like it or not it wouldn't hurt to get some big names on board [or lying down, whatever]

Well, I'm going to go along and take a look. Don't know if I will lie down for 15 minutes though

How many people are they expecting?

I suspect there will be more protestors than TfL staff around at 5pm on a Friday what ever the number.

I suspect there will be more protestors than TfL staff around at 5pm on a Friday what ever the number.