Suggestions for HHV Track League

The purpose of this thread is to suggest and discuss positive ideas for Herne Hill Velodrome track league. Any good ideas can be submitted to the relevant management teams and committees at HHV.

Ideas that have been discussed elsewhere include:

• No all in races
  
• Limiting the number of riders racing in any given event
  
• Enforcing / extending the progression system from training to racing
  
• No self-selection of category - requirement to progress from C to B to A via scoring points in league
  
  

Other more left field thoughts are:

• Detailed safety briefing (e.g. five minutes) at the start of each event explaining:

  Riders responsibility for how bike should be set-up
  Level of experience expected in each category
  Expectations regarding respect for other riders
  How to report unsafe riding if anyone observes it

• Season long or nightly prize for safest rider (either nominated by bunch or by commissaries)

• 'Theory test' for any new riders on how to ride responsibly / respond to events observed.

What do you mean by no ABC races? All in races or something else? The all in races are the ones where the most carnage has happened.

Unfortunately you can't really use BC points as a guide, a lot of good track riders don't score license points. Chris Hoy was a 4th cat!

Enforcing the progression system from training to racing with proper accreditation should be the way forward but unfortunately doesn't work so well in practice unless we have a load more volunteers to help administer it.

The biggest thing and easiest thing to implement at the moment is to keep C cats completely segregated until they earn their way into Bs. Very little crashing in C cat only races as they're not all heads down on the rivet. Would mean not fitting in very many races though or extending the schedule.

By ABC i meant all-in (i.e. ABC all participating). Edited OP.

Enforcing the progression system from training to racing with proper accreditation should be the way forward but unfortunately doesn't work so well in practice unless we have a load more volunteers to help administer it.

Has there been any shortage of volunteers for comms this season? My hunch is there wouldn't be a shortage of volunteers if this was set up and communicated clearly. Could be done via clubs or individuals.

Ideas that have been discussed elsewhere include:

• No self-selection of category - requirement to progress from C to B to A via scoring points in league
  

I would say this is an excellent idea, (and was honestly quite surprised that you can choose your own level at HH when I started) but I'm not sure if it would cause less accidents.

I think a better monitored accreditation / training process would help - though that obviously means more money and time from comms/volunteers.

I only started track this year (have done plenty of bunch road riding for years) I've done every training session on offer except Thursday derny and I realised after last night that at no point in my 'pathway' has anyone said:

"this is what to do in a crash..."
"this is what to do if you think another rider is riding dangerously..."

I know there is a limit to what you can teach in theory terms and most of it should be learnt through doing - but even if it's simple advice like* "stay calm, scrub off speed, move up the track or use the escape route.. if you fall try not to do x or y... etc" * Just grinding this advice into people would help.

'How to fall'? Bet it's the first thing they teach in Keirin schools.
Clearly expressed, sensibly enforced rules of conduct and routes for dealing with dangerous riding are vital. The 5-minute briefing is a good start.

Neutralise first part of any big race that starts when the lights go on to get people accustomed to the levels and shadows? I'm sure that wasn't helping last night

Does the thread have to have quite such a strongly worded title? How about just general suggestions for 2014?

The purpose of this thread is to suggest and discuss positive ideas for rider safety at Herne Hill Velodrome track league. Any good ideas can be submitted to the relevant management teams and committees at HHV.

is this in reaction to something as yet unseen by my eyes?!

pile-up on the Velodrome?!

What about 'suggestions for rider safety at HHV'?

The problem is that any discussion is an implied criticism of the status quo. I think everyone who uses the track acknowledges the great work of the organisers and volunteers. The purpose of this is purely to try and find positive responses, rather than circular arguments.

Does the thread have to have quite such a strongly worded title? How about just general suggestions for 2014?

Yeah, can the title be changed? There's quite a bit of hysteria here IMHO. There are plenty of crashes in RR's too and there is no such thing as accreditation, pathway etc etc.The fact that HH has these even if they aren't always enforced means that rider safety is being directly considered.

I do think that no all-in races is a good idea and also that people should expect to be boll*cked by other riders if they do something wrong. I prefer to be known as that shouty bloke rather than that bloke with no teeth.

Very keen to take on feedback and offers of help for next year, both here, via emal, converstaion, and importantly at the final Track League on 25th September - where there will be racing, bbq, prize giving and discussions on next years format.

Just that all a hysterical thread title serves to do is sully the reputation of Track League which may take a lot longer to recover than the cause of any problem.

People are also very welcome to add suggestions on the format of racing for next year too. The racing is meant to meet the demands of the riders. That way we won't have to disqualify riders for cheating by changing their gears in a derny race. For example.

Has there been any shortage of volunteers for comms this season? My hunch is there wouldn't be a shortage of volunteers if this was set up and communicated clearly. Could be done via clubs or individuals.

I'm sure JC is in a much better position than me to comment on this but I'm pretty sure there is communication on this through clubs already, and it was made very clear when the league season started that volunteers would be needed, to the extent that the top riders from last year's league were required to put in at least one week to help with judging or not be able to claim any prizes this year.

The problem is that people just aren't willing or able up. Those who race don't want to have to quit racing and those club riders who don't race don't seem to be that keen on giving up their own time to do what is a pretty thankless task. This is a problem across cycling in general not just at HHV.

You seem quite keen to give the existing volunteers a lot of stick on here when they're giving up a lot of their own free time keep the track running. Have you offered your services yet? That certainly would be a lot more productive than sniping from the sidelines.

What do you want the title changed to?

Hippy - please change to 'suggestions for HHV track league'

.

Not sure how hysterical the thread title is - but it doesn't make much sense to argue over semantics either...

"...doesn't make much sense to argue over semantics."

Ollie will hunt you down and light you on fire.

Bite me. I got an A in English A-level and used to work as an assistant editor at a magazine - I enjoy being sloppy these days :) Plus I've got the day off.

Riders don't get to choose their level. If they are doing this, they are gambling with other peoples safety! You need to win a C race, to race in the B's at the moment, and so on, and so on.

My suggestion is that before people start racing at track league, they have (at least) a season of track riding experience behind them. I find newly inducted riders are turning up for track league, as well as for more advanced sessions, making it unsafe for many other riders.
There are far too many riders racing that 1)don't look before they move 2)ride too aggressively and disregard other riders safety 3)cant even hold a wheel safely as they are hanging on for dear life with their heads down. These are basic novice skills that shouldn't need to be pointed out in, or after, a heated race. You shouldn't need to yell 'stay up' or 'stay down' every few seconds or meters!
*Administrating this would require some sort of card system that would need to be checked when signing on maybe? Also requires judges and comms picking riders up on unsafe riding. Maybe after 3DQ's you are suspended from TL? Sounds a bit schooly, but if there is a consequence then hopefully racers will pull their socks up! Again means more admin, more volunteers, or more responsibility on those volunteers.

Another thing I have found is some riders are reluctant to take on constructive feedback. If you politely try and point out they nearly just killed you and another rider they seem to shrug it off or deny it?
*It would probably be better received from a judge or commissionaire than a fellow racer - again more admin and responsibility on volunteers. Nobody wants to whine to the Comms officer about another rider either, so what can the Comms do if they are not told?

Youth and women categories should potentially be separate. Again, mixed abilities. What do you think would happen if an average 5.8 male shoulders smaller built riders like this out the way...or accidentally falls on them. (Youth and women also elbow and shoulder, so they have every right to be shouldered back if this happens BTW.) I think its good learning for both youth and women categories, but realize its not particularly fair on anyone involved?
*This means fewer races per evening, as it would be spread thin. Again more admin as more races need to be judged and recorded.

Novice category for riders that are racing their first season, and have less than 1-2 years additional track training behind them. The C's at the moment seem to bundle youth, women, novice, new to Track League, and slower racers...part of the all inclusive problem...This problem dissolves further up the ladder...
*Would require some sort of system to administer. Also means fewer races overall on Wednesdays.

Bottom line is many options would require more volunteers, and demand more from those volunteers as some riders cannot self moderate themselves with the safety of the group in mind.

More sprint events.

About 8 steps ahead of you on that one...though not on a Wednesday

Excellent :-)

If you need a hand with anything, let me know.

It may seem great right now that track league is full of new faces and the tills are ringing at sign-on but the truth is that cycling is in it's heyday and a lot of those new faces will be gone in 2-3 years to whatever the next cool thing is. When that happens if the regulars have upped sticks and gone somewhere else HHV will be in a dark place.

Having seen first hand the damage that can be done in cycling accidents, HHV needs to find a way to promote fun, healthy competition rather than a win-at-all-odds mentality. I've watched the coaches clamp down on the racing at the end of inter training and that should be applauded but a lot of those people are now finding their racing-fix in TL or Monday night race training so maybe you should focus some energy there.

These same problems are prevalent in all the local crits down at the 3/4 level but there, it is far less controllable so be grateful that HHV has the ability to more closely manage their way out of this situation.

Anyway.... I've got a 600km bike ride starting in a couple of hours.

Is this the correct "forum" for this discussion given that a significant number of track league competitors (possibly a majority?) are not LFGSS members?

Dov, do you not think that the opening of Lee Valley will take some of the pressure off HHV? I suspect things will become a bit more 'normal' once that kicks off.
At the moment it seems like its bursting at the seams on a Saturday/Monday.

As a separate note, my girlfriend has recently started doing the Mule Bar Girl Sunday sessions, I went to watch on Sunday and I have to say that I was really impressed. Not only do the coaches create a fun, friendly atmosphere but the actual quantity/quality of coaching and instruction the riders receive is fantastic. Every single person in the session left with a smile on their face.