Herne Hill Saturday Training

Ta.

@ dan - yes to the washing machine thing (I didn't go to Obree's book signing at LMNH for fear of him trying to poach bits of me for his next creation), but I think that only really applies at very high cadences i.e. the sort of stuff you do roller racing or downhill on the road fixed.

I reckon everyone's slow twitch fibres are trainable. As discussed on here before, there's a noticable threshold when riding rollers above which my fast twitch fibres activate, and they have the short burn time associated with sprinting. If I wind it up gently towards ~130rpm, or decelerate towards that mark from a proper sprint, I get all the weird bouncing that seems to be a result of transitioning between the two systems. So up until that point, I don't believe I'm engaging my washing machine fast twitch fibres at all; and like non-washing machine types, I have to patiently train my slow twitch fibres and associated biomechanical movements to be as smooth and efficient as possible at the higher end of their spectrum, what you might broadly define as 90-130rpm.

It takes time, and is better if it's routine. Naturally it's best learnt at a young age, but adults bemoaning a loss of neuromuscular plasticity is usually more whingeing lazy cop-out than hard truth.

I still bounce at anything over 120rpm, I don't think I've quite got the fluidity to get over 130 and hold it, yet. Regular stretching is the thing that has helped most - I need to do more of it.
I think you're right about adults bedwetting about that stuff . Plus, I'm still only 29, plenty of time for excuses later :)

Btw, was there a guy on a Colnago Dream Pista in basics yesterday? Thought I saw one as I left the track.

Oh and yes, there was - bloody lovely it was too.

It's much more important to get your cardiovascular system up to speed first, then add a couple of gear inches when you race proper and can turn it over in a faster moving bunch without grinding away your snap; at least for general track riding

Please listen, people!

I reckon everyone's slow twitch fibres are trainable.

In what way?

Very general, but: Slow twitch muscle fibres can be recruited and added through higher intensity aerobic training, however a big part of what makes a sprinter and what makes an endurance rider is the way the muscles use the oxygen stored in the blood. Even if you did add a load of slow twitch muscle to a natural sprinter, they would still not be a great enduro as they will not produce the volume of red blood cells required.

Slow twitchers who are able to train to high intensity can become very powerful pursuiters, in many cases a genetically gifted slow twitcher can produce a lap time during a pursuit which an amatuer sprinter would have trouble matching from a flying effort.

In both cases though, great importance should be placed on traning higher cadences with smaller gears before increasing the load. Muscles trained to fire a smooth cadence at 130-150rpm will, with training, be able to sustain that cadence as the gear is increased. Starting with a big gear having never trained your muscles to perform at higher cadences will mean you will spend most of your time with tired muscles that you are steadily training to fire slower.

In layman's terms: stop the gear inch willy waving and learn to spin properly otherwise you will be wasting a lot of your time. Because you hear someone on TV say Hoy uses 104" or someone on Sunday said they used a 101" doesn't mean folk who have about 9-12months of once a week track training can do the same.

@ dan - 130 seems to be the cross-over. Then your genetic fast twitch make-up (and also your fast conditioning) starts running things. I'll falter at that point unless I switch systems, and then there's the knowledge that it's a finite resource - without being gravity-assisted, I know I'm limited to ~15s with the fast twitch at the top end of *their *spectrum, down to a few minutes at the bottom end. It's why over-under type drills are useful, as they help you adjust to the demands of dipping repeatedly in and out of fast twitch in order to meet the demands of a ride/race, in much the same way you have to train yourself to mix it up between different muscle groups on a slow cadence climb in order to avoid blowing up.

@ RPM - as I think you've already gleaned, I'm talking about training the *efficiency *of slow twitch riding rather than recruiting/adding more fibres; with efficiency being stuff like co-ordination, fuel delivery, and additional voodoo, all acquired through time spent training rather than time spent thinking about how swapping your 15t for a 14t might solve all your problems.

Just to reiterate, for the uninformed, I'm neither a coach, nor pretending to be a coach. I'm just some cunt who rides fixed a lot, and manages to ride faster and longer than many people with bigger gears or a selection thereof.

This is all interesting, as it is pertinent to an issue I have in my first year of track racing, namely that I have no top end sprint / speed ability. I just can't go above a certain speed. I feel comfortable in a pace line or on the front at around 45 km/h plus on 84GI (which is quite high cadence), but 130 -135 rpm feels like a ceiling to me. I seem to have no fast twitch muscle fibre.

If I am comprehending RPM and BMMF, the best I can do is persist with a lighter gearing, which in the medium term I may be able to increase by a few GI? Basically, I feel like I have zero talent for track.

Does that matter though? I'm never going to be a cat 1 roadie, but I still enjoy trying to keep up with people who are stronger than me on the road.

Surely, your top end will either develop with time, or you'll work out you should be riding pursuit or something. I have no idea what I'm talking about obviously.

I mentioned you should try training your jump in a medium gear whilst we were caning it along nocturnal lanes the other week. Both seated and standing. Fast feet. Pitter patter. Body braced as necessary. The Inner Circle at Regents Park is good for that kind of thing. Loads of scope, and pretty safe if you do it between the York Bridge Chester Bridge junctions.

Or whatever.

^^To a certain extent, no. I am not very competitive, as I have enjoyed track league and Monday nights this year despite having no success.

On the flip side, I would like to maximise the abilities I have. Two positive things I have identified are aerobic ability and recovery. If I develop these effectively I think I can be competitive (defined as take regular points in the Bs, occasional points in the As). At the moment I don't have a coherent plan for developing this though.

Coherent plans are what people like RPM help you concoct, I think.

^ this

^^^^ I have been giving this a go. Definitely improved my sprint a bit over the last month.

Doesn't it take years to get your legs properly? I've been taking riding semi-seriously for maybe 3 years now, I still feel like a bag of spanners sometimes, but I can feel some improvements.

No, it's instantaneous from the moment you buy some high end cycling equipment and post pictures of it on the internet. Don't you know anything?

Fuck, really? I want my money back then.. all of it.

I should have just gone back to cricket, at least they feed you in that sport.

I should have just gone back to cricket, at least they feed you in that sport.

You get fed in cycling, mostly bullshit!

I actually came to this thread to ask (but forgot in my rant mode):
Who is the american-sounding rider on the bugundy Robin Mather? We spoke just before I went on, he'd left the Intermediate session, he was being very complimentary about my bike. But then later I was driving in Nunhead, and heckled at him out the window 'Get some brakes!' - then he looked peturbed, didn't see me, and I felt guilty! Only having a laugh, hi if you're on here.

Ha. Was indeed me. You are right I didn't see you and had a wtf moment. Thought it was another London nutter. Will say hi next time.

Thought it was another London nutter.

You mean there is more than one nutter in London?

Btw, was there a guy on a Colnago Dream Pista in basics yesterday? Thought I saw one as I left the track.

Oh and yes, there was - bloody lovely it was too.

This would have been Robadob :)

what bikes are you guys on dan pharoahsanders and skully? It is my last basic session this saturday, I am the slow/fat guy on a blue singular bike ..

pharoahsanders is rocking a beautiful red Robin Mather, but rides inters.

ah ok ^ which bike are you on? I think you have a canyon roadie if I am right that you ride to HH?