Bob Jackson (Vigorelli, etc)

does so-so hand movement

I like my Bob but I'm not sure a 631 road frame from them would be my first choice. That 853 one looks like a nice bike, but mostly because it's 853 and has a good crabon fork.

Im currently riding a 531c ribble with modern parts and its pretty heavy but ive never found it a hindrance when riding with people on fancy expensive road bikes
so anything better would be an improvement. also I want my next bike to have vertical dropouts as horizontal ones are a lil bitch sometimes