Herne Hill Saturday Training

I suppose, if everyone concentrates on holding a uniform gap it will nullify changes in pace.

Not really, because this only works if every rider is able to ride around a banked track at a constant pace.
If your man in the first row doesn't press on when he hits the turn, letting the banking slown him down, and then speeds up when he exits, this will magnify down the group (getting progressively worse as each rider makes increasingly more extreme adjustments).

Quite often you will get riders shouting at others in the middle of the bunch not to kick back, but it's the people in front that also need to stop riding like noddys.

Add a bit of wind to the mix and you've got issues.

I'm surprised, given that most people seem to have the black box out of Knight Rider strapped on the handlebars, that they can't see for themselves how their pedalling affects their speed on different parts of the track.

@NCGee cheers, gonna have a crack definitely, cheers

Will I get slaughtered in my first races?

You might be pleasantly surprised! Get yourself in track league or one of the spring omniums and see what it's all about

What causes the concertina effect is people not controlling their speed smoothly. Not necessarily the size of the gaps.
.

This.
I had to leave a gap in front at times because I knew that just around the bend going into headwind everyone will slowdown and I would naturally be back on the wheel without having to slow down.
I find it helpful to look a few riders ahead of me, anticipating any potential slowdowns or acceleration and adjusting my speed gradually. For example knowing when slower riders are taking turns at the front. It was a little frustrating at times today but not dangerous at all.

I find it helpful to look a few riders ahead of me, anticipating any potential slowdowns or acceleration and adjusting my speed gradually. For example knowing when slower riders are taking turns at the front. It was a little frustrating at times today but not dangerous at all.

Good observation is very important, it helps you ride more safely, but also helps you save energy. Like you say it's much better to look a few riders ahead of you or towards the line, and reacting to changes in pace before they reach you, rather than staring at the person in front and have to react suddenly.

Anyone thinking of racing who hasn't tried it yet should come along to the Go-Race novice racing on 27th April in the afternoon. You will be racing with other first-time racers so it won't be quite as intense. I'll try to get more details up soon, but it'll be a similar price to the training sessions and you can enter on the day (just turn up like you would for training). Arrive just before 2pm, warm up on the track from 2, the first races will be at 2.30pm. /You do not need a racing licence or need to be a member of a club to take part.
http://www.hernehillvelodrome.com/racing_events/track_racing/calendar_and_results/

New for this year there is also a C category in track league, which will be easier than the Bs - if you can keep up with the intermediate session you'll have no problem at all http://www.hernehillvelodrome.com/racing_events/track_racing/track_league/index.html

Race training on monday nights is also a good bet for you to get the idea of what racing is like.

The novice race and the C-cat sound great.

@cooky thanks for the info, definitely up for this

Nice to be back and see faces in basics again -hi Moserism if you see this, good luck in the Classic tomorrow and thanks for looking out for me today, track legs getting broken into now.

Good to see you again! Classic was good fun, me and the misses were busting our HH jerseys, got to fly the flag..

Actually, you will get more concertina-ing when people kick back because they are too close to the rider in front and have no space left to control their speed.

There was quite a bit of concertina-ing going on in basic and I put it down to just a few more newbies.. But being too close makes perfect sense speed irregulities are passed down the line rather than absorbed by riders in total control of their pace.
Definitely noted, I'll be using this even if it does mean being a little less aero..

Race training on monday nights is also a good bet for you to get the idea of what racing is like.

I ama novice, I did my track induction last weekend but in general I work on Saturdays so can’t put in the hours at basic training. After my induction last week I talked to the nice old guy who was at the sign up table and he said to come to the race training on Mondays.

Can you shed some light on how the race training is organised, how are the riders grouped, are there other less experienced riders? Am I going to be so out of my depth that I am a liability?

I shall be coming down tomorrow regardless but well see how it goes as to whether I participate or just spectate.

I ama novice, I did my track induction last weekend but in general I work on Saturdays so can’t put in the hours at basic training. After my induction last week I talked to the nice old guy who was at the sign up table and he said to come to the race training on Mondays.

Can you shed some light on how the race training is organised, how are the riders grouped, are there other less experienced riders? Am I going to be so out of my depth that I am a liability?

I shall be coming down tomorrow regardless but well see how it goes as to whether I participate or just spectate.

What the nice old man should've said was this:

http://www.hernehillvelodrome.com/sessions_and_training/session_pathway/

Simply put, you do not have the skills to ride a track bike at anything close to Cat C race pace and you would be a danger to other users.

But hey, if someone wants to tell my I'm wrong....

It was good to be back, my first basic of the year on Sat.

Coaches were SO on it they were brilliant.

Thanks smiff for sorting me out! I was so cool calm and collected on my way to HH ... then oh noes, cash machine not giving out, no one wants to give cashback, and me getting ANNOYED.

no worries skulls

There was quite a bit of concertina-ing going on in basic and I put it down to just a few more newbies.. But being too close makes perfect sense speed irregulities are passed down the line rather than absorbed by riders in total control of their pace.

Definitely a wide range of abilities in Basic, but everyone has to start somewhere. I wonder whether trying to maintain constant pace in a concertina-ing paceline actually teaches you more about speed control...

What the nice old man should've said was this:

http://www.hernehillvelodrome.com/sessions_and_training/session_pathway/

Simply put, you do not have the skills to ride a track bike at anything close to Cat C race pace and you would be a danger to other users.

But hey, if someone wants to tell my I'm wrong....

The consensus between the coaches seems to be that Mondays is ok for beginners. I also work most Saturdays and got the same answer from a different coach. I asked if Mondays would be too difficult and was told that there's usually two groups and that the slower group should be fine. Whilst I appreciate that there are obvious safety concerns, I also think that the attitude to newcomers might be more welcoming than this. After all, the Monday night sessions are part of the pathway, not separate from it, and any rider who skips straight from induction to Mondays is only missing out on three hours of track time. If it's too fast / difficult / nervy for beginners on Monday than they can always just stop or be pulled off by the coach.

Ideally there would be an alternative basic training slot for those who can't make Saturdays (of which there must be plenty).

For the meantime I'm planning on changing shifts until I've done my Saturday sessions, so I am essentially in agreement with the safety-first opinion... but that's mainly because I don't want to feel out of my depth. It might be not so easy for others to switch work days, so they'd just be missing out forever...

Definitely a wide range of abilities in Basic, but everyone has to start somewhere. I wonder whether trying to maintain constant pace in a concertina-ing paceline actually teaches you more about speed control...

I'm sure it all helps, any track experience is good experience for us basics but the week before the pace had been really smooth.
I'm more concerned with just riding safely, consertina-ing plus a slightly erratic rider in front led to quite a stuttering ride for me this week, next time I'll just leave half a yard more and be all constant and smooth..

[QUOTE=gaz1979;3519285] Whilst I appreciate that there are obvious safety concerns, I also think that the attitude to newcomers might be more welcoming than this. After all, the Monday night sessions are part of the pathway, not separate from it, and any rider who skips straight from induction to Mondays is only missing out on three hours of track time. If it's too fast / difficult / nervy for beginners on Monday than they can always just stop or be pulled off by the coach.
QUOTE]

As you say the Mondays are part of the pathway but the crucial word is pathway, it's a progressive training regime; three hours is a reasonable amount of track time and if it's too nervy on a Monday for a newer rider there's a chance they might punt someone off defore they stop / are stopped by a coach. The idea of a training pathway is to protect other track users as well.

The consensus between the coaches seems to be that Mondays is ok for beginners. I also work most Saturdays and got the same answer from a different coach. I asked if Mondays would be too difficult and was told that there's usually two groups and that the slower group should be fine. Whilst I appreciate that there are obvious safety concerns, I also think that the attitude to newcomers might be more welcoming than this. After all, the Monday night sessions are part of the pathway, not separate from it, and any rider who skips straight from induction to Mondays is only missing out on three hours of track time. If it's too fast / difficult / nervy for beginners on Monday than they can always just stop or be pulled off by the coach.

Ideally there would be an alternative basic training slot for those who can't make Saturdays (of which there must be plenty).

For the meantime I'm planning on changing shifts until I've done my Saturday sessions, so I am essentially in agreement with the safety-first opinion... but that's mainly because I don't want to feel out of my depth. It might be not so easy for others to switch work days, so they'd just be missing out forever...

Sorry, you're very wrong about a lot of things. "only" three hours of track time is actually quite a lot for a novice and will be the difference between a safe rider and a dangerous rider.
As for 'extra slots' the velodrome is fully booked with sessions 7 days a week FYI.

One suggestion to those who believe that the track pathway should be built around their personal schedule:

The basis of intermediate and basic training is group riding. You can become more experienced in group riding by doing it on the road (join a club) which can be done whenever you have time off, most clubs have Sunday rides and evening chain gangs. Once you're proficient in this on the road, you won't be too much of a liability on the track.

Definitely a wide range of abilities in Basic, but everyone has to start somewhere. I wonder whether trying to maintain constant pace in a concertina-ing paceline actually teaches you more about speed control...

It teaches you what not to do! But actually, trying to maintain a constant pace in a group that's kicking back is impossible to do by riding close. Simply lay off an adequate distance so that you don't run too close up behind them when they kick back.

In a basic training session or induction, I would expect riders to progress from riding a bike length gap (and controlling it) to half that during the session.

As for someone's earlier comment about aerodynamics, the difference for you guys between 1/2 a wheel and 1/2 a bike will be so negligible as to not matter.

Riders who are learning to control their speed on a banked track should not be riding too close, because riding too close will cause overlaps, and overlaps cause crashes.

My point is that there is flexibility from the coaches and I am assuming / hoping they know what they're doing. There is a fast-track induction listed before the Monday session, so perhaps this is what they mean...?

There are plenty of daytime slots available in the week. It even says on the website that you can book in a group session by calling ahead, so surely this an option? (genuine question, if anyone knows).

I agree about the group riding thing - that is pretty much all you do in the basic sessions, and takes a bit of getting used to.

Either way, I'd query the assumption that all track novices don't have prior experience of group riding.

There's no assumptions. Only that people should already be proficient at actually riding a bicycle.

Which is why Mondays have the fast track induction for those who already have improved skills. Eg, from road racing.

Anyone can book a private session too. More expensive but better quality than a public session.

The basis of intermediate and basic training is group riding. You can become more experienced in group riding by doing it on the road (join a club) which can be done whenever you have time off, most clubs have Sunday rides and evening chain gangs. Once you're proficient in this on the road, you won't be too much of a liability on the track.

Experience of group riding seems to be so undervalued by a lot of riders at the moment.

I'm curious about the popularity of the intermediate training amongst riders who don't intend to race. What does track training offer that a well organised club run doesn't?

I guess no traffic lights, cars and a route to worry about. You get 1.5 hours of quality tempo riding.

Among other reasons, I'm doing the track pathway as a way of getting experiance of group riding before I go out with a club.

There's no assumptions. Only that people should already be proficient at actually riding a bicycle.

Which is why Mondays have the fast track induction for those who already have improved skills. Eg, from road racing.

Anyone can book a private session too. More expensive but better quality than a public session.

That sounds fair

I found colin's original response harsh in comparison to the much friendlier attitude I'd found at the track itself and wanted to assert that I had heard the same as wildmaurice (re mondays) from a more reliable-sounding source than a "nice old man".

Personally, I'm a big fan of the pathway system, which is why I'm sticking to it. It's very good fun so far, and the learning curve seems to be about right.

Is the Monday fast-track induction actually running yet?

I was planning to do the mandatory 3 basic sessions before turning up on a Monday evening, but having done a reasonable amount of road racing and a few track sessions at Newport I'd welcome an opportunity to short-cut the process. My kids ride at Hillingdon on Saturdays, and if I come to Herne Hill they miss out...

Everyone does have to start somewhere,

I am not coming from a background where competitive cycling was all around me like I’m sure it must have been for many of you and young people I saw at Herne Hill. I decided to go to HH because I am personally enthusiastic and want to get involved. Its not some natural development in my cycling career!

I would however be interested in joining a road club at some point – getting involved in the local cycling community at HH seems like a natural way to find out about what types of cycling are on offer to me.

to those who believe that the track pathway should be built around their personal schedule

I have a job and I have a full time degree these are my priorities. track cycling if it is going to become a part of my life needs to work around that.

Anyway the coach (I’ll drop the ‘nice old guy' – I was just trying to be descriptive) told me to come down so I will – I will talk to those on duty about my situation and wont be taking part if they or I think it is dangerous and irresponsible.