Road Wheels & Road Wheel Recommendations?

In any case, if you need 2.0 / 1.8 / 2.0 spokes, DT Competition are much nicer than ACI, IMHO, and definitely worth it on Royce hubs.

There are slight dimension differences between the manufacturers.

DT spokes have a narrower shoulder than Sapim for example. In theory it means the spokes sit tighter in the hub. But it can equally mean that the shoulder is more stressed I guess. Works well in a narrow flange like a Tune road hub. But I find them slightly tight in a Hope MTB hub. As for quality, If it wasnt for my love of DT super comps for disc braked wheels. I'd probably never pay the DT premium. Slightly cheaper options from folk like Pillar are just as good* IMHO.

(*unless you want black, and then DT seem to have a very solid finish)

Re Pillar - there was an article knocking around on the aero properties of various spokes. IIRC the aero Pillars had a worse profile than the round Sapims.

The Pacenti look good simply because at 24mm wide I can run them with a couple of turns of the adjuster barrel- other rims are simply too narrow for the adjustment range I have.

I tried my A319's + 25c Michelin pro 4's in my Giant TCR and they fitted, but were pretty tight by the chain stays. I need to have a bash with a 23c, but I do worry if it goes out of true a bit or moves it'll rub.

In any event I wonder if for a lot of road bikes 24mm will be getting towards the widest you'd want to go.

I went and tried the Firecrests in my frame before buying them due to similar concerns

Re Pillar - there was an article knocking around on the aero properties of various spokes. IIRC the aero Pillars had a worse profile than the round Sapims.

They're pretty flat, as opposed to oval.

This is the trouble with putting together your own aero wheels, from cheaper parts.

starts building home wind tunnel

But are they race day wheels, or general training wheels?

Because if its the later then you've probably very cleverly designed a benefit.

does anyone know where you can buy the HED c2's as rim-only?
I like the Archetypes, but want black rims, without the grubby worn-in anodised brake surface after 200 miles. Why don't they just make them with a decent machined surface?

But are they race day wheels, or general training wheels?

Because if its the later then you've probably very cleverly designed a benefit.

Neither. I use the fixed for training, and the road bike for nice weather rides. Each time I enter a road 'event' (dont like to call them 'races', its not how I approach them). I think 'I can do that fixed'.

Might try the road bike out ion the next one.

TBH I did'nt really try to design an aero wheelset. I wanted something responsive for a heavier rider, and the deeper rims, and flat section spokes seemed to fit that. Did'nt hurt that I like the look. I have always figured that there must be some aero benefit though. Especially as they seem to hold speed really well.

alternative is the a23 I guess, but put off by reports that they aren't very stiff - could this be countered by building a 36h rear wheel? (These are going to be as bombproof as possible - for mucky winter riding and taking to Flanders / Wales)

does anyone know where you can buy the HED c2's as rim-only?

Directly from HED.

Many thanks for your enquiry.
We do sell the Ardennes rims separately. We offer three different grades of Ardennes rims, the Scandium (used in the build of our FR and SL Ardennes front wheels (only suitable for front wheel builds)).
The Standard (used in the rear wheel of our FR and SL Ardennes as well as the rest of the Ardennes wheel range) and the "Belgium" which is a lower grade rim for aftermarket sale only (this rim doesn't feature in any of our Ardennes wheel builds)
Please find a price breakdown for each of the three grades of rim below:

ARDENNES Rims Hole Count Weight RRP
Ardennes Scandium Rim 700c clincher 18 & 20 425g £199.00
Ardennes Standard Rim 700c clincher 18, 20, 24 & 28 450g £149.00
Ardennes "Belgium" Rim 700c clincher 18, 20, 24 & 28 460g £109.00

HED UK

Thanks for that.
I don't think they're for me - 28h isn't going to cut it for how robust I want them to be. Also pretty pricey.

Dan, how much do you weigh?

weight is fluctuating, been losing weight steadily over the last 6 months - around 90kg's currently (a 'stallion' by HED's terminology) - but probably will be nearer to 85kg by the time I get these built and ridden (6 weeks probably).

#fatpost

I know that technically I could ride a 28 c2 - but I already have fancy wheels, I just want these to work with a minimum of fuss and be bombproof. I'm considering a 36h rear as I seem to be able to screw up most wheels and the weight penalty for the extra 4 spokes doesn't seem prohibitive.

I'm 89kg and now considering getting stallion tattooed across my belly

I was going to say that I ride a pair of 28h A23s to Record hubs on the winter bike that I've not had flexy issues with but at 85 you'd still have 20kg on me so probably best not to take my word for it.

Like hippy once said, never ask a light person about their thoughts on brake performance. I guess this is a similar situation.

#skin&bone

Yeah - I seem to be able to get pretty much any wheel to move around when I give it 'the power' - even my 45mm Roval carbon disco wheels.

I'm inclined to take Scherrit's advice when it comes to wheels and brakes - i.e: more spokes and groupset brakes, respectively :)

I'm 89kg and now considering getting stallion tattooed across my belly

Fuck that, I'm going to be out of that category in a month, and down to 82 by the summer.

I'm inclined to take Scherrit's advice
Always a good idea.

^^pussy

(These are going to be as bombproof as possible - for mucky winter riding and taking to Flanders / Wales)

What about the Mavic A719? Not super light (or with the v-profile) but will be strong, and have the width. Otherwise, 36H CXP33s make for a pretty nails wheel, albeit with a narrower trad road racing width.

fed up with Mavic rims - I've had nothing but trouble with all the builds I've done with them, and generally unimpressed with the braking of all of them.
It seems a bit backward to buy a rim that hasn't changed for 20 years when there are a lot of newer, better rims on the market, at a similar price point. If I go for a 'classic' rim, it's more likely to be a DT rim as they make excellent stuff and have nice braking surfaces - or even an Ambrosio rim.

Interesting. I've not been very impressed with cheap Mavic rims like the Open Sport but I've been really happy with the Open Pros and CXP33s I've used.

fed up with Mavic rims - I've had nothing but trouble with all the builds I've done with them, and generally unimpressed with the braking of all of them.

What does braking have to do with any of these rims. Beyond the crapy eloxial on some coloured rims, all alloy rims provide more or less the same braking performance with suitable pads. Braking performance on a bicycle wheel is a product of the heat dissipation of the rim. While there are some slight differences in thermal conductivity between different rims, the differences are not significant enough to be of any concern. Once upon a time some rim vendors had some special surfaces on their rims to improve wet braking performance but this was generally either not too terribly effective, reduced dry braking performance or just increased pad wear... Carbon, of course, is different and that's why one uses quite different material (such as cork).

It seems a bit backward to buy a rim that hasn't changed for 20 years when there are a lot of newer, better rims on the market, at a similar price point.

What improvements have been made to rims over the last 20 years--- composite materials aside? Even 20 years those "new rims" were hardly better than what one called "20 year old rims". What has we seen? Eloxial, Hardox, welding, thinner extrusions, thicker extrusions with machined sides, 7075 (used, among others, in the 1970s by Fiamme), other 7000 series alloys.. Deeper section, fewer spokes (also been around since the 1960s).. Spokes have greatly improved but rims?

In cycling newer is rarely better.. only newer.. and often just newer to the reciever but not really newer... Loads of Déjà-vu in cycling.. The wooden rim that gave way to alloy rims in the 1960s has been making a fashion comeback.. we are even seeing bamboo bicycles at the "high end" of the recreational cyclist segment. Non-oval chainrings are too once again being sold as the "new road superweapon" (through the past 100 years they seem to appear any other decade in a new guise). Stupid light in the 1970s (drillium) is not too different from stupid light in the age of carbon and cheap numerical lathes (CNC). A few things change in response to the development of newer, cheaper materials.. Back in the 1930 some parts were made of Bakelit, in 1960s Delrin plastics were used (Simplex among others) and today.. its carbon fibre reinforced plastics.. Yes.. plastics have improved :-)

If I go for a 'classic' rim, it's more likely to be a DT rim as they make excellent stuff and have nice braking surfaces - or even an Ambrosio rim.

Since when is DT classic? The Ambrosio Nemisis is a nice bullet-proof rim-- despite the Hardox-- but is hardly something "new". 20-30 years ago it was called the Metamorphisis and about the only novel thing back then was the Hardox.. dark rims were made hip by Mavic in the late 1970s. Mavic has long been an innovator of colour.. The Mavic SSC of the 1980s was pretty novel in that it had a cool blue colour, this gave way to the red coloured Reflex rims in the Helium.... and then in a sea of coloured and black rims,,, "silver" as the new "black"..

What does braking have to do with any of these rims. Beyond the crapy eloxial on some coloured rims, all alloy rims provide more or less the same braking performance with suitable pads. Braking performance on a bicycle wheel is a product of the heat dissipation of the rim. While there are some slight differences in thermal conductivity between different rims, the differences are not significant enough to be of any concern. Once upon a time some rim vendors had some special surfaces on their rims to improve wet braking performance but this was generally either not too terribly effective, reduced dry braking performance or just increased pad wear... Carbon, of course, is different and that's why one uses quite different material (such as cork).

What improvements have been made to rims over the last 20 years--- composite materials aside? Even 20 years those "new rims" were hardly better than what one called "20 year old rims". What has we seen? Eloxial, Hardox, welding, thinner extrusions, thicker extrusions with machined sides, 7075 (used, among others, in the 1970s by Fiamme), other 7000 series alloys.. Deeper section, fewer spokes (also been around since the 1960s).. Spokes have greatly improved but rims?

In cycling newer is rarely better.. only newer.. and often just newer to the reciever but not really newer... Loads of Déjà-vu in cycling.. The wooden rim that gave way to alloy rims in the 1960s has been making a fashion comeback.. we are even seeing bamboo bicycles at the "high end" of the recreational cyclist segment. Non-oval chainrings are too once again being sold as the "new road superweapon" (through the past 100 years they seem to appear any other decade in a new guise). Stupid light in the 1970s (drillium) is not too different from stupid light in the age of carbon and cheap numerical lathes (CNC). A few things change in response to the development of newer, cheaper materials.. Back in the 1930 some parts were made of Bakelit, in 1960s Delrin plastics were used (Simplex among others) and today.. its carbon fibre reinforced plastics.. Yes.. plastics have improved :-)

Since when is DT classic? The Ambrosio Nemisis is a nice bullet-proof rim-- despite the Hardox-- but is hardly something "new". 20-30 years ago it was called the Metamorphisis and about the only novel thing back then was the Hardox.. dark rims were made hip by Mavic in the late 1970s. Mavic has long been an innovator of colour.. The Mavic SSC of the 1980s was pretty novel in that it had a cool blue colour, this gave way to the red coloured Reflex rims in the Helium.... and then in a sea of coloured and black rims,,, "silver" as the new "black"..

I absolutely disagree with your statement that braking is more or less the same on all alloy rims - especially in the wet. Obviously all my experiences are anecdotal, but I have run 5-6 different alloy braking surface wheelsets on my main road bike (all using the same Campag Record calliper / pad setup) and experienced vastly different braking performance. In particular I have noticed that braking is significantly poorer on Mavic rims (Open Pro and Sport) in comparison to Roval, DT and Easton factory wheels.

What it comes down to is, do you like and trust the components you are using? I have developed preferences and aversions to certain products and brands based on my experiences and since it's my money I am spending, I feel absolutely justified not re-purchasing products which I perceive to be inferior.

RE: the DT / classic argument - I wasn't referring to it as a 'classic' rim - I meant a more traditional box-shaped rim. Sorry for any confusion.

I don't have time to respond to the rest of your points right now - but my eschewing of Mavic rims as a choice is mainly related to previous points about braking and personal preference, but also a noticeable decrease in quality control.

I'm with Edward on this one. These manufacturers are all more or less using the same materials for these rims. And the braking surfaces are machined pretty damn flat. I fail to see how there could be anything other than marginal differences between braking performance between Mavic/whoever.

What brake pads or how true your wheels are have a far greater effect, and I suspect your bad braking experiences with Mavic are probably down to poor wheelbuild / old rims / in your head.