drop handlebars and brake lever position

Sheldon Brown...
[INDENT]People who think they don't like drop handlebars are often actually objecting to the position of the bars on the drop-bar bikes they have tried.
Bikes with drop bars often have the bars mounted rather low and far forward, so that the rider has to lean forward quite a lot to reach the bars, especially the lower "drop" position. If these people tried a bike where the drop bars were placed higher, and closer to the saddle, they might find they really liked them.[/INDENT]
So I rode for the first time (~40 miles) on drop bars this weekend. Was a bad experience. Here are a couple images to give you an idea of positioning.


(believe the bars need to be rotated clock-wise)

The dropped bar area was fine to grip palms down [1], as was the flat bar area [2] and the lever hoods [3]. The inside of the curve however was too small for my hands and gripping the bars palms forward [4] was uncomfortable. Additionally [4] I carried tension in my shoulders (not due to hand discomfort).

Now the flipside is that I could only comfortably cover the brake levers whilst having my hands in the curve [4]. Obviously it was impossible to cover the levers holding the either the dropped [1] or flat bar area [2], with my hands on the hoods I couldn't reach the lower part of the lever so had little leverage. When trying to apply significant force I had to strain my fingers and was limited as my thumbs and hand couldn't rotate any further downwards.

Now I think the problem will be somewhat alleviated by repositioning the levers higher up the bars. Is that right? Can anyone offer any other advice?
Sheldon suggests a stem with shorter extension and/ or longer length... well the frame is already a small so the shorter extension isn't really an option and the length is already a 120mm, I want to avoid a threadless stem. Setback post?

(excuse the sex mood lighting of my living room and the ridiculous english i slip into when trying to explain things, which makes things more difficult to understand)

Thanks!

Sheldon Brown...
[INDENT]People who think they don't like drop handlebars are often actually objecting to the position of the bars on the drop-bar bikes they have tried.
Bikes with drop bars often have the bars mounted rather low and far forward, so that the rider has to lean forward quite a lot to reach the bars, especially the lower "drop" position. If these people tried a bike where the drop bars were placed higher, and closer to the saddle, they might find they really liked them.[/INDENT]
So I rode for the first time (~40 miles) on drop bars this weekend. Was a bad experience. Here are a couple images to give you an idea of positioning (click for bigger).



(believe the bars need to be rotated clock-wise)

The dropped bar area was fine to grip palms down [1], as was the flat bar area [2] and the lever hoods [3]. The inside of the curve however was too small for my hands and gripping the bars palms forward [4] was uncomfortable and I carried tension in my shoulders (but not due to hand discomfort).

Now the flipside is that I could only comfortably cover the brake levers whilst having my hands in the curve [4]. Obviously it was impossible to cover the levers holding the either the dropped [1] or flat bar area [2], with my hands on the hoods I couldn't reach the lower part of the lever so had little leverage. When trying to apply significant force I had to strain my fingers and was limited as my thumbs and hand couldn't rotate any further downwards.

Now I think the problem will be somewhat alleviated by repositioning the levers higher up the bars. Is that right? Can anyone offer any other advice?
Sheldon suggests a stem with shorter extension and/ or longer length... well the frame is already a small so the shorter extension isn't really an option and the length is already a 120mm, I want to avoid a threadless stem. Setback post?

(excuse the sex mood lighting of my living room and the ridiculous english i slip into when trying to explain things, which makes things more difficult to understand)

Thanks!

You could try compact bars, for example the forum's favourite, the Bontrager SSR VR C.

Shorter stem would be my recommendation.

Your levers are really, really low, and the bars are rotated the wrong way.

You could rotate your bars slightly down (so they point towards the rear brake bridge or rear hub, depending on who you ask) and move you levers up so you can sit on the hoods to brake. Even a centimetre.

Like this (not the best example though):

Older bars and brake levers were designed so you'd brake in the drop and so forth.

Modern brakes and bars are designed to brake from the hoods and drops...

If you got a more modern compact bar, I'd suggest replacing the brake levers to something more modern as well (SRAM, Tektro, etc), otherwise you're just wasting your time.

A slightly shorter stem may help, but you'll still be braking from the drops, not the hoods.

So bars that have a flatter transition? A wider flat before the drop, rather than a curved drop.

Shorter stem would be my recommendation.

A slightly shorter stem may help, but you'll still be braking from the drops, not the hoods.

how would a shorter stem benefit? i imagine i'd be further over the bar making it more difficult to get leverage on the levers and i'd have more weight would be on the hands (thumbs).

Your levers are really, really low, and the bars are rotated the wrong way.

is "low" judged in relation to the saddle height?
wouldn't a shorter stem lower the levers?

You could rotate your bars slightly down (so they point towards the rear brake bridge or rear hub, depending on who you ask) and move you levers up so you can sit on the hoods to brake. Even a centimetre.

noted re lever position

Older bars and brake levers were designed so you'd brake in the drop and so forth.

Modern brakes and bars are designed to brake from the hoods and drops...

yeah, i can see from the shape of the hoods and length of bar pre-drop.

If you got a more modern compact bar, I'd suggest replacing the brake levers to something more modern as well (SRAM, Tektro, etc), otherwise you're just wasting your time.

want to avoid replacing anything, but may well have to. would i have to replace the levers and hoods or just the hoods?

appreciate all the replies, thanks!

Using this as a reference (from this useful site: http://ruedatropical.com/2009/03/road-drop-bar-geometry/)

The standard "neutral" way of setting up drop bars and levers is to place a ruler along the underside of the drops (so it sticks out forwards) and adjust the position of the levers so that the tip of the lever just touches the ruler or is a bit above it. Then rotate the bar so that the ramps are level i.e., parallel to the ground, or form a straight line with the stem (which is often roughly level for a quill stem like yours). Some people achieve much the same by pointing the drops at the rear hub.

Your bars look like they're rotated too far forward, so I'd agree that you need to rotate them backwards or, as you said with reference to your picture, clockwise. I did this and it made getting onto the hoods much more comfy.

Old non-aero levers like yours only really work well from the hooks (your position 4) so not being comfy in this position is bad news. I'd highly recommend upgrading to modern aero levers as you get much better braking from the hoods. These are nice and look quite retro or, if you've got big hands and don't mind a more modern look, these or these.

Yes you could place the brakes higher up on your bars, I personally think the higher this is the worse it looks asthetically but you are looking for functionality, a shorter stem will also mean you dont have to reach as far to rest on the hoods. As someone else pointed out compact or different shaped drops might help make you more comfortable on the drops and hoods. Without visiting a bike fitting specialist it will be trial and error I am afraid.

rotate the bars up a bit, fit modern levers and also fit them a bit higher and the hole set up should feel much nicer, also i put a bit of cork tape under the hood area before i wrapped them, all the tiny differences make a big a difference! like how i had my bars on my Gazelle...

they used to be like this before i had it and changed the bars to those ^ just felt shit to hold

But my new compact Bontrager bars are way nicer.

Using this as a reference (from this useful site: http://ruedatropical.com/2009/03/road-drop-bar-geometry/)

useful, thanks.

The standard "neutral" way of setting up drop bars and levers is to place a ruler along the underside of the drops (so it sticks out forwards) and adjust the position of the levers so that the tip of the lever just touches the ruler or is a bit above it.

the lever tips are positioned as you suggest.

Then rotate the bar so that the ramps are level i.e., parallel to the ground, or form a straight line with the stem (which is often roughly level for a quill stem like yours). Some people achieve much the same by pointing the drops at the rear hub.

Your bars look like they're rotated too far forward, so I'd agree that you need to rotate them backwards or, as you said with reference to your picture, clockwise. I did this and it made getting onto the hoods much more comfy.

i rotated the bars clockwise (relative to the picture) to point just above the hubs, this also levelled the ramps to the stem:

...the bar position and levers look wrong as anything!
it's easier to apply force to the levers from the ramps (hand on the hoods) but practically impossible from the hooks.
it feels like moving the levers *down * the bar would balance out the two.

Old non-aero levers like yours only really work well from the hooks (your position 4) so not being comfy in this position is bad news.

completely see how they are designed to be accessed from the hooks rather than the drops.
with the original set up i could easily access the levers but my hands weren't comfortable: japanese bars not designed for larger hands.
with the new set up the levers are too high up the bars to be accessed from the drops

I'd highly recommend upgrading to modern aero levers as you get much better braking from the hoods. These are nice and look quite retro or, if you've got big hands and don't mind a more modern look, these or these.

i really want to avoid changing the levers as i have a matching groupset (bar post) - could i get a result by switching hoods alone? google tells me dia compe and cane creek do some compatible non-areo ones.

Yes you could place the brakes higher up on your bars, I personally think the higher this is the worse it looks asthetically but you are looking for functionality, a shorter stem will also mean you dont have to reach as far to rest on the hoods. As someone else pointed out compact or different shaped drops might help make you more comfortable on the drops and hoods. Without visiting a bike fitting specialist it will be trial and error I am afraid.

thanks SY. the new position of the levers certainly aren't pretty! will play around with these bars, levers, hood until i can be certain what i am looking for in a bar.

rotate the bars up a bit, fit modern levers and also fit them a bit higher and the hole set up should feel much nicer, also i put a bit of cork tape under the hood area before i wrapped them, all the tiny differences make a big a difference! like how i had my bars on my Gazelle...

they used to be like this before i had it and changed the bars to those ^ just felt shit to hold

But my new compact Bontrager bars are way nicer.

yeah the old position looks a strain. modern hoods -when the levers vertical- seem to have a longer top than bottom, allowing them to fit on a less acute angle. seems the modern cover position is now the ramps (on the hoods) rather than in the hooks.

thanks everyone. if you care to keep the discussion going it would be much appreciated!

Using this as a reference (from this useful site: http://ruedatropical.com/2009/03/road-drop-bar-geometry/)

The standard "neutral" way of setting up drop bars and levers is to place a ruler along the underside of the drops (so it sticks out forwards) and adjust the position of the levers so that the tip of the lever just touches the ruler or is a bit above it. Then rotate the bar so that the ramps are level i.e., parallel to the ground, or form a straight line with the stem (which is often roughly level for a quill stem like yours). Some people achieve much the same by pointing the drops at the rear hub.

Your bars look like they're rotated too far forward, so I'd agree that you need to rotate them backwards or, as you said with reference to your picture, clockwise. I did this and it made getting onto the hoods much more comfy.

Old non-aero levers like yours only really work well from the hooks (your position 4) so not being comfy in this position is bad news. I'd highly recommend upgrading to modern aero levers as you get much better braking from the hoods. These are nice and look quite retro or, if you've got big hands and don't mind a more modern look, these or these.

Awesome article!

i rotated the bars clockwise (relative to the picture) to point just above the hubs, this also levelled the ramps to the stem:

...the bar position and levers look wrong as anything!
it's easier to apply force to the levers from the ramps (hand on the hoods) but practically impossible from the hooks.
it feels like moving the levers *down * the bar would balance out the two.

completely see how they are designed to be accessed from the hooks rather than the drops.
with the original set up i could easily access the levers but my hands weren't comfortable: japanese bars not designed for larger hands.
with the new set up the levers are too high up the bars to be accessed from the drops

i really want to avoid changing the levers as i have a matching groupset (bar post) - could i get a result by switching hoods alone? google tells me dia compe and cane creek do some compatible non-areo ones.

Yup, that looks horrible, but you see quite a lot of bikes with that type of lever set up that way, presumably to try to get round this problem. Mine wasn't far off that before I switched to aero levers.

You could try new hoods if you can find one that will give you a flatter transition from the ramps to the hoods like an aero lever. That may allow you to use the brakes from the hoods more effectively, but I can't guarantee it because I think there are other differences between non-aero and aero levers such as the angle of pull and the mechanical advantage.

If you find a bar with a deeper drop to make room for your hands then the natural position of the levers (according to the technique I suggested) would be further down the bar. Bear in mind that the technique I suggested is just a guideline and obviously people's personal preference varies substantially.