Euro Qualifiers 2013

The real backbone on UK polo was revealed again with the superlative and unassuming efforts made by those already recognised above and also the teams (with one notable exception), managing the day with a mixture of black humour and doughty energy. As much as I'd naturally want to despise any team that went on to win every game (!) I find I cannot - Adam's commitment to the whole of polo off court is their ultimate triumph - a genuine role model.

I understand all the arguments and debates surrounding the role of this event and the opportunities to divert elements of qualification into other tournaments like the UK Champs, however this event has, in the last few years, earnt a special place in UK polo history. Why not keep it going as it is in all its unique, back-to-basics glory... and accept all the logistical issues we recognise? The accuracy of the format and the no-frills spirit gives an unequivocal result that all teams accept at every level - no other tournament does this.

Yeah, but over 2 days next time? Please?

^ yeah, definitely increase the days once we get over 12 teams...

I really think we need to change the system for next year.

We are only going to have more teams trying to qualify next year, and this year showed any of those 15 teams (and Bubonic Plays as well, if they had made it), could have finished top 10, no-one was that far off.

So that's only going to encourage more teams to enter next year.

15 teams is already a logistical nightmare, but if you push it into two days that's only going to make it worse.

In some senses we got lucky that it rained, no-one tried to take the court, but unless we start paying serious money for this, there is no way we could keep Newington for two days.

If you really want to keep the full round robin system, we need a location with more courts, that we can guarantee as our own, for 2 days. Maybe Brighton could do that, not sure, I can't think of anywhere else that can.

But if we have 20 teams next year, that's 190 games, you'd struggle to do that on 2 courts in 2 days.

While conceptually it's a nice format, we really need to look at the realities of the situation, and what is likely to happen the next few years.

I would really recommend one of two options:

French System: The teams who make it to Paris qualify for the main qualifier next year (with a 2/3 rule, if they can't fulfil that, that spot is lost).
The other teams play a pre qualifier, and the best X teams from that join the other teams for the main qualifier.

Co-efficient system: For every (open) tournament, players earn points (a system will be defined, X points for Euros and Worlds, Y points for UK Champs and LO, Z points for NS, etc). Points will degrade over time, and be removed after 12 months/18 months/whatever, so that the most recent tournaments are more valuable (so newer players aren't disadvantaged). Teams that want to go to the Euros add up their individuals points, and the teams with the most points qualify. We would need to define this before the Euros this year, to be fair.

Spirit over maths every time!

Seriously, identifying form as close to the actual event must surely be a priority? I could see that there is merit in recognising NS and UK Champs performances from the previous year, but anything more than that I don't see as robust.

Registered or 'recognised' teams could earn ranking points through officially sanctioned events under a 2/3rds ruling that made them eligible for the qualification finals, with new/reformed/teams with 2 subs having to prequalify - thus making two smaller, more manageable events.

There would be zero credibility attached in trying to enforce an already retrospective 'teams already confirmed for Paris 2012 are pre-qualified for next year' - especially if that notion came from one of those more fortunate teams'... ;-)

Encouraging more UK teams to build, prepare and compete for a Euro/Worlds place should be an embodied principle, not a reluctant or begrudging eventuality! Enabling teams to play against each other including the elite is the only way the enlarging second tier will improve and challenge for higher honours. As you say, the quality of the performances of the last five teams were infinitely better that those of 2011, perhaps in a more marked ratio than the top three?

If the competition for places intensifies so much the better. Building our house on a reduction policy cannot be good in the longer term.

There would be zero credibility attached in trying to enforce an already retrospective 'teams already confirmed for Paris 2012 are pre-qualified for next year' - especially if that notion came from one of those more fortunate teams'... ;-)

Well, the French decided it just a few months ago for their qualification system, so it does work.

And this idea was suggested a number of times over the last few months, I'm just raising it again.

Also, Rat Trap are not qualified for Paris.

Encouraging more UK teams to build, prepare and compete for a Euro/Worlds place should be an embodied principle, not a reluctant or begrudging eventuality! Enabling teams to play against each other including the elite is the only way the enlarging second tier will improve and challenge for higher honours.

And those are all great points, but they still don't deal with the reality of the situation, we simply don't have the combination of time/courts/money to do whatever people think is conceptually best, we need to deal with those realities first, before we look at nice to have things like "preparing" "second tier" teams. The Euro qualifiers is not a training weekend, and there is nothing stopping "second tier" teams arranged games against "elite" teams.

As we get more and more teams, the only option, with the current parameters, is to start tiering qualification, or get rid of the qualification tournament entirely.

Also, Rat Trap are not qualified for Paris.

Thank 5G for that! ;-) Was just teasing... Nevertheless, any system you are suggesting is somewhat at the mercy of the host city and their quirks. As far as I'm concerned, 10 have now qualified by right and 3 of those are in a prelim round on a different court - 'wildcard' my ass,

Srsly, a year is a long time in polo to carry forward endeavours and form - too long to make any sense (unless your French maybe)!

I really don't think it is.

Of the teams that qualified this year, SB, NT, Cosmic, Gettin Wild (as Cream), Dead Rappers, Wooden Skulls (as TNT) all qualified last year, the only real change was Yea Baby, and the Irish didn't play last time. None of the other qualified teams exist any more, so every single one from last year that met the 2/3 rule, qualified this year as well.

With the tiered qualification system everyone still has a chance, and any of last years teams still needs to earn their place by playing a very hard qualifier, but there are so many advantages to it, in that you don't need to limit teams, you can play them in two different locations, at two different times, and neither tournament would be anywhere near as big as everyone together.

I dont disagree ^^

Just putting out another idea for discussion.

What about using the 2013 UK champs as the pre-qualifier?

Then hold an RR with the top 10-16 teams from the UK champs to sort out the euros qualifiers? This tournament date would be closer to the euros than currently. You can cap the number of teams and then plan the tournament better. Chances are that there will be less than or equal to 7+3 spots allocated for the 2013 euros so a cap of max 16 teams would be appropriate? Maybe allow a couple wildcards in case they could not make the UK champs? Still you are into a marathon day/2 days/more courts, but at least the number of games is known and organisers can prepare ahead.

Keep the discussion going in the different scenes (task the UKHBPA reps) and make a decision now (or as soon as possible).

For example: Adam and Ryan were keen to build one additional court at Downs for next year's UK Champs and to host it early in the season (Feb/March?) over two days... a scaled down LO2011 if you like.

It would be awesome if we had bids from different parts of the country for an early UK Champs (or something) next year that could field teams to the Euros (in the event of spots being issued by country again)?

Yes, the UK Champs as a pre qualifier is a potential solution, the only real issue I see is finding a good balance between letting in enough teams that you allow for a bad run in an elim (which is a very bad way of ranking teams), and capping it at a low enough number you can have a realistic qualifier.

I'd suggest it might be better to take the top X teams from the Swiss Rounds to the qualifier, rather than from the Elim (finding the best team in the UK, and the top X teams in the UK are very different aims, and lead to different tactics etc).

I think Adam/Ryan were thinking RR UK Champs.

But actually, Downs at that time of year will only be playable until 7.30pm I think?

Two courts, two days would only enable a RR for 25 teams? The UK Champs this year has only 23 teams, but I imagine next year there will be more (35 perhaps)?

25 team RR would be 300 games.

No way you can do that in 2 days on 2 courts.

In fact, I'm going to define a new term, a courtday. With 10 minute games in my experience you get just over 4 games an hour, so if you have 10 hours, lets call it 45 games per courtday.

180 games is the realistic maximum for 2 days, 2 courts
25 team RR would be 7 courtdays.

Can we have a new thread for this please?

I don't have any suggestions for next year, only that we can't do what we did on Sunday again. We have to strike a balance between keeping the door open for as many teams as possible, and making the qualification process manageable. Sunday was borderline unmanageable.

Perhaps we should be using results from early season tournaments, using some sort of co-efficient, or position averaging, to determine which teams should qualify. This would encourage participation in UK tournaments by the best UK teams.

We would also need to make sure that the standard of tournament is good enough also. IMO, Sunday's tournament wasn't good enough. Newington is a great court, and it has a lot going for it, but it isn't even the best polo court(s) in London. The only reason we used it is because there are 2 courts & it is lit, not because it has good surface, is near to an ideal size etc etc.

I imagine the UKHBPA will invite feedback on the process, so I would suggest talking to your rep about it (or that the UKHBPA will devise a method for players to feedback to them outside of their rep).

I imagine the UKHBPA will invite feedback on the process, so I would suggest talking to your rep about it (or that the UKHBPA will devise a method for players to feedback to them outside of their rep).

Agreed, nothing should be decided by chit-chat on this forum.

I don't want to harp on about the courts, but it's likely (not having seen the courts) that Brighton will have better quality courts than the qualis, which seems wrong.

180 games is the realistic maximum for 2 days, 2 courts

Ah, I was out by a fair bit then! 180 games is only 9 hours of polo a day though... but good point.

Yep, awaiting instruction from the UKHBPA is fine, but let's have this instruction in good time!

I'd suggest it might be better to take the top X teams from the Swiss Rounds to the qualifier, rather than from the Elim (finding the best team in the UK, and the top X teams in the UK are very different aims, and lead to different tactics etc).

Agreed John, taking the top 16 would do the trick if it were a 16 team elim. And then accept a couple wildcard spots for teams that were not able to attend etc.

I will discuss with Cambridge this week and via UKHBPA

European wide regional qualifiers is the only way forward

European wide regional qualifiers is the only way forward

sure just not sure were quite ready yet. European association will take time? Need the uk one to be running smoother first.

I agree, but all it takes is a few willing people and several willing cities and we could have a euros which doesn't look like an invitational.

We have plenty of time to get this sorted out if we start now.
We don't necessarily need an ehbp'A', we just need a ehbp'C' working committee of people to make a few decisions, write up a minimum standard for qualification tournaments and create a bid process.

Cities can make a bid for the actual championships, and the north, south east west and central qualifiers.

OK, it's not that easy, but if all the energy spent typing arguments on the Internet about what went wrong this year was channeled into getting shit done, we could have a fair system that is enjoyable to take part in, whether you play in the euros or not.

MHBP are preparing a bid for a dual 2013 UK Champs/Euro Qualifiers in conjunction with Manchester City Council and an imminent Neighbourhood Sports Funding initiative. It would be useful if we can continue to thrash out the key issues around this whilst the 2012 event is fresh in our minds.

Key Issues

Dates
Formats
Wildcards
Location
Facilities
Costs
Miscellaneous

It should go without saying that this is merely bid preparation - once it is prepared and approved by MHBP and the council, we will formally submit to the powers that be ie. other cities also thinking about these tournaments should continue to do so.

Dates: If it's the qualifiers as early in the year as possible. I'd say March - May
Formats:
UK Champs and Qualifiers need very different formats, you'll need to think carefully about the format, to come up with a compromise which gives you the accurate ranking needed for the qualifiers, and the elimination style people will want for the champs. Maybe have the qualifiers decided by the first day, then the champs ranking in an elim on the second.

Or make it a 3 day event, Swiss rounds on day 1, Elim on day 2, and then a round robin for the top X teams on day 3 to decide the qualifiers. Day 3 doesn't have to be at the same weekend, or even in the same location.

Location, 2 days 2 courts is really the minimum you need.

Facilities, qualifiers can be no frills, for UK Champs you want as many teams as possible, so I guess you need to offer something.

Personally I'm very much against combining the two events. One is all about accuracy, amongst a small number of teams, the other is about finding a winner, and getting as many teams as possible.

Hopefully Europe moves to a regional qualifying tournament model, in which case that's not an issue.