Primary position

You still haven't actually done cycle training, have you, Ashe?

And my original reply to you still stands:

http://www.lfgss.com/post2376969.html

It is all about balance. Not proscription. Ride primary when you can, want to or need to. Riding with the flow of traffic or near the flow. Some drivers get it some dont. Some will learn some wont. They dont want to harm and its probably a good idea to ignor the ignorant even abusive ones unless they do harm

And as oliver says my offer is still open

I'll ask my brother (a driving instructor) what he teaches about driving and cycling. I'll let you know what he says.

^^^^^^^^This.

Thank you. I look forward to hearing a fresh perspective.

Ashe, just go and do some cycle training. The proof of the primary position is in the riding. Is there any particular reason why you're unwilling to take up the offer of a free lesson?

.... Bikeability is about helping people understand where the risks lie. ....

This to me is the best phrase I have read on the subject - thank you. It says so much more than 'primary is the default' etc etc. It opens the door to a style of teaching that helps people really understand how positioning should be dynamic - there are many many permutations about where to position yourself, as shown by this thread. Combined with such a wide range of trainees - esp in terms of the speed at which people will be cycling - there's only so much you are going to achieve in x hours of training.

My example is that maybe once a month I cycle down a stretch of the A22 Godstone-East Grinstead, it's narrow, it's heavily-trafficked, it's built-up and inter-urban, it varies between 60 and 30. In some places I'll be primary and some secondary (in fact in some stretches scare me and the theory and my practice differ). But I think my positioning has evolved through experience - if I was teaching someone this route there would be a lot of stops, discussion and observation. I suppose most Instructors would do the same.

I think that in this thread there's not much as much disagreement on positioning in practice as there might seem to be. Maybe it's the language of teaching that needs some clarity.

I'll ask my brother (a driving instructor) what he teaches about driving and cycling. I'll let you know what he says.

^^^^^^^^This.

Thank you. I look forward to hearing a fresh perspective.
I trained the IAM's chief instructor who agreed completly with all national standard cycle training messages apart from one thing

I trained the IAM's chief instructor who agreed completly with all national standard cycle training messages apart from one thing

What was that one thing? I gotta know.... ;-)

Can I add the note that the training syllabus is so often reduced, in these kind of conversations, to two points. Primary Position and Keeping up with Traffic.

There is so much more to it which is why even experienced riders (like me!) always say they get something valuable from the course despite their expectations. Skydancer's point about risk awareness is spot on.

The one thing he disagreed with was how to manage an oncoming driver on a narrow street. I suggested that riders should hold their line forcing drivers to slow down and negotiate for space. He though that 'playing chicken' with drivers was not a good idea and that cyclists should always defer to drivers and pull in as early as possible.

Hmmmm... it's only playing chicken if you leave it to the last possible moment. If the street is really that narrow, you need the driver to slow down and pulling over too early will have the opposite effect.

The one thing he disagreed with was how to manage an oncoming driver on a narrow street. I suggested that riders should hold their line forcing drivers to slow down and negotiate for space. He though that 'playing chicken' with drivers was not a good idea and that cyclists should always defer to drivers and pull in as early as possible.

I agree with the driving instructor.

However, isn't that how drivers see us cyclists from the rear,....as playing chicken with them, by taking up their road-space? I view all vehicle drivers as being dangerous (to me), and because of that, I cycle defensively. I've cycled London roads for a good many years now, and I have seen drivers do some seriously unhinged things. I remember once when a black cab was driven into me on purpose, twice, when coming around Hyde Park Corner. I didn't fall off, and laughed at what I thought was gentle, but crazy behaviour.

Despite appearances (accidents are few and far between for me), I do cycle with my own safety in mind, and all other considerations come after that. If I can't see someone behind me, I won't take the chance that they will be understanding of my use of the primary position.

Having had a few accidents, I am possibly more cautious than others. No accident I've ever had was caused by a driver being in the wrong though.

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What do you mean by 'I cycle defensively'? Is that not the same as assertively? IE ensuring drivers see you, claiming space when you need to.
On the playing chicken point, again it is about balance and not being a dick/pussy (See eperate thread).

I cycle to the left, near the edge of the road, but not in the gutter. I never cycle one to two metres out, like other cyclists I see doing. I am never in the way of drivers, and do maintain a pretty decent clip. I give way to drivers, because I think they are all potential mentals. I see the primary position as being a red flag to a bull, for oiks that drive, and I know that its only their inattention or aggression that would do me some serious harm. So, my risk assessment sees the opposite of you professionals, and I have never had a cycling accident that related to a car/truck/bus. I mean to keep it that way.

Further, I won't cycle in the dark unless extremely well illuminated; with fresh batteries, and powerful lights.

I hope people don't mind an opposing opinion, as it keeps the topic alive, and the discussion lively.

The one thing he disagreed with was how to manage an oncoming driver on a narrow street. I suggested that riders should hold their line forcing drivers to slow down and negotiate for space. He though that 'playing chicken' with drivers was not a good idea and that cyclists should always defer to drivers and pull in as early as possible.

To be fair, I'm sure he would give the same advice to a car driver in the equivalent scenario - a larger vehicle coming in the opposite direction. Avoiding potential conflicts is a cornerstone of the IAM philosophy.

Ashe, will you continue to dodge the offer of some seriously excellent free cycle training?

Ashe, will you continue to dodge the offer of some seriously excellent free cycle training?

^ this.

A while ago, I didn't take cycle training cause I thought I was decent enough, but Oliver (et all) convinced me to give it a try and see how I pan out.

Definitely worth it, you have nothing to lose but your dignity (which seemed to be what you're implying).

I have never had a cycling accident that related to a car/truck/bus. I mean to keep it that way.

I hope people don't mind an opposing opinion, as it keeps the topic alive, and the discussion lively.

Opposing opinions are good. Discussion is good. Perhaps the next stage is a discussion in situ ie on the road, rather than repeating the same things here. Cycle training is all about real conditions and reacting to them rather than dry descriptions on a web forum.

Btw what did happen to you if not car truck or bus related? Was it a pedestrian?

Have you been baptised GA2G?

Isn't GA2G weighing up where the risks lie (Skydancer's advice) then choosing a position where he's comfortable and will keep him cycling?

GA2G - would you mind if I ask what you do in those situations where your normal riding position might mean people could try to 'squeeze' past you - say a traffic island?

Have you been baptised GA2G?

On this note, I will now leave this thread.

Ashe, will you continue to dodge the offer of some seriously excellent free cycle training?

Answer the question, please.

He's not on trial.

Objection!