Campagnolo Record 8 Speed Titanium Issues

Hi,
First post in the mechanics section and first road bike build so i will probably have something wrong. I've been trolling the interwebs for days trying to find out the answer to this but no luck.

My problem is this:

Amongst other things I have some record titanium 8 speed shifters, a record titanium 9 speed rear mech, chorus 8 speed rear hub, and cassette. Oh and a record 9 speed chain. The bike shop cannot get the gears to shift smoothly no matter what the do with this setup.

We think think there must be something slightly wrong with the rear mech. But we're not entirely sure so before i buy something else i've been trying to clear up a question. This is where i need help.

The shifters - do record "titanium" 8 speed shifters pull the same amount of cable as other campag 8 speed shifters? I have found from my interweb trolling that the campag 8 speed cassettes available are compatible with everything EXCEPT record titanium hubs. This is because the spine pattern is different. I just want to check that the cog spacing isn't also different, which would mean the cable pull would have to be. But i can't find the answer anywhere.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

well you're doing it wrong with the 9 speed chain, chains are not cross compatible like that above 7 speed. The more gears you have, the narrower the chain is as they are fitting 9, 10 or 11 cogs into the same space as 8.

well you're doing it wrong with the 9 speed chain, chains are not cross compatible like that above 7 speed. The more gears you have, the narrower the chain is as they are fitting 9, 10 or 11 cogs into the same space as 8.

an 8 speed chain may be a good place to start, your bike shop really should've known this..

thanks malaysian.
they tried an 8 speed kmc chain they had first. the advise i was given was that although a 9 speed chain on 8 speed cogs isn't perfect - it wouldn't be a big issue.

thanks malaysian.
they tried an 8 speed kmc chain they had first. the advise i was given was that although a 9 speed chain on 8 speed cogs isn't perfect - it wouldn't be a big issue.

They were wrong.

5-8 speed chains are all the same width, 9 speed is narrower and 10 speed narrower again.

If it was Shimano then 8speed shifter 9 speed mech and 8 speed cassette (there's no difference in 8,9 or 10 speed hubs, only 7 speed are narrower) would be fine as the shifters and cassette are the important parts to get synchronised.

With Campy I'd expect it to be the same but you know how those Italians are.

Will the gears work if the bike is in the stand but don't shift as well when it's being ridden?

How old are the jockey wheels and cassette? Quite often fitting a new chain to an old cassette = shit shifting, even if the cassette doesn't look too worn. Jockey wheels could also be worn and screwing up the shifting.

I presume the shop have checked the alignment of the hanger? tell tale sign of a bent hanger or mech would be that the gears can be made to shift fine at one end of the cassette but end up out of whack by the time you shift to the other end.

the good news. my shifters will work fine. they tried a different rear mech from another bike they have for me this morning and said the shifting was fine.

the bad news. the rear mech is goosed. the jockey wheels looked fine when i cleaned it up. they say the hanger looks very slightly bent. is this fixable or do i need a new mech?

the chain thing is annoying me. i spent £30 on it in another lbs to get it quick. will it really not be ok? sheldon seems to think it will. similar to the bike shop he says:

"As you go to more sprockets on the cassette, you need a narrower chain. However, using a chain one size narrower than standard rarely presents any problem. Thus, you can use a "9-speed" chain with a 7-speed or 8-speed system, or a "10-speed" chain with a 9-speed system. This is not the ideal approach -- shifting may not be quite as smooth -- but it's workable"

ok to use for the minute at least?

Hmmm, I'd say you risk wearing the sides of the cassette cogs which could lead to all kinda shit down the line. For the price of a 5,6,7,8 speed chain, just buy it.

Mech hanger should be saveable, the shop should have an alignment tool, if they don't, find a new LBS.

Chances are if the hanger "looks" slightly bent then in reality it's buggerfucked. A hanger that's slightly bent will be hard to identify with the naked eye, you need to get something on there that extends it, such as the alignment tool does.

Vandal's right. Get the hanger alignment checked. It's a 5 minute job for someone who knows what they're doing if it's a steel frame. If it's an aluminium frame, they may have to replace the replaceable hanger - that'll take longer.

DoctorBike

I'm confused. If the hanger (on the frame, part of the dropout normally) is bent, this doesn't mean you need a new mech. The fact that the replacement mech worked fine suggests your frame hanger is OK. when you say hanger, are you meaning the mech attachment point ( actually on the mech itself) ?

yes sorry i was completely wrong. i didn't mean the hanger at all! i meant the bit with the jockey wheels. in the end it wasn't even that. the mech has a crack in it somewhere which neither the bike shop or i noticed at first. new mech needed.

I have a similar problem as well. I have an 8 speed record shifter, 8 speed campag cassette and 8 speed chorus rear mech. I have spent hours trying to get it to shift properly but its still not working. When shifting of bottom gears are perfect (1 to 5), the top gears (6 to 8) are fucked. If I adjust the top to shift perfecty the bottom gets fucked. The rear hanger has been checked by my LBS and it is perfectly alligned. The rear mech is shifting more distance than necessary. Any ideas?

Thanks for reading and Merry Christmas.

Definitely sounds more like an alignment issue than a cable pull issue.

Was the hanger checked by removing the mech and fitting an alignment tool or was it just eyed up? Was it checked in all directions? When I do a hanger I use the alignment tool in 12 and 6 positions to check what I suppose could be called vertical alignment and at 3 and 9 to check the horizontal.

If the lbs told you it was perfectly aligned already I'd be very skeptical. Very rarely are hangers 'perfectly aligned' even on bikes like brand new £7k P1 Madones.

If the hanger is definitely straight then could be the mech that's bent/twisted or even worn pivots could cause some sloppiness but really, I'd have another shop check your hanger first, and make sure they use a proper tool like the Park DAG-2.

Thanks for advise. Will get it checked at another LBS.

I wouldn't be too concerned about running a 9-speed chain on an 8-speed set up. It's a bit like running an 8-speed chain on an older 5-speed setup which generally works fine.

Anyway, back to the original question of compatibility, things only got complicated when they first brought out 9-speed as there was a transition period where the cable pull changed. The way to check which type of mech you have (old ratio versus new) is to see what style of b-adjustment it has. The tension screw moved you see.

If you have mated the correct shifter with the correct mech and it still doesn't shift well (and the hanger is roughly straight, then you should check the mech does not have too much play in either the parallelogram or the jockey wheels. The parallelogram should only move the jockey cage back and forth and not wobble at all against the hanger mount. The upper jockey wheel should have lateral movement, but have only a slight amount of play to allow the wheel to angle side to side. Also make sure the wheels are the correct way around; upper and lower! I've seen them swapped before when the upper has had so much play it's become useless...

I've measured older chains; they are sometimes wider. Eg. the Regina I replaced on a 7-speed bike not that long ago. The internal width stays the same.

If you look here, you can see how spacing and sprocket width narrows as you increase number of speeds. The jump in spacing from 6-8 speed is similar as from 8-9:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sp-ss.html

I'm not saying that 9-speed is just as good. 8-speed would be preferable, but I'd hardly throw it away because it isn't the ideal. If it works fine, it is fine.

I think the bigger issue is the front spacing since that's where chains would be more likely to get stuck, so the OP may want to check what year their chainset is from, and if its a double or triple.

I run a 1 x 7, so don't tend to worry so much about front shifters.

I have a similar problem as well. I have an 8 speed record shifter, 8 speed campag cassette and 8 speed chorus rear mech. I have spent hours trying to get it to shift properly but its still not working. When shifting of bottom gears are perfect (1 to 5), the top gears (6 to 8) are fucked. If I adjust the top to shift perfecty the bottom gets fucked. The rear hanger has been checked by my LBS and it is perfectly alligned. The rear mech is shifting more distance than necessary. Any ideas?

Thanks for reading and Merry Christmas.

How the gear cable is clamped in the rear mech can affect the amount of cable pull. Check how yours is clamped against the instruction manual. These are still available from the Campag website (I think).

I wouldn't be too concerned about running a 9-speed chain on an 8-speed set up. It's a bit like running an 8-speed chain on an older 5-speed setup which generally works fine.

After trying to run an 8 speed chain on a 9 speed block (with 9sp shifters and mech) the other day in work I stand by my statement that I'd give it a miss. That was Shimano I was trying to do it with but it just wouldn't run nice. It was alright on the bigger cogs but on the smaller bit of the cassette it was horrid.

Yes, that ^ definitely doesn't work, but I have used KMC 9 speed chains on my 8 speed shimano bikes for ages, and it is pretty much perfect, in fact I would suggest the shifting is actually crisper!

Oh aye, that was the other way round from what was being discussed before wasn't it? Fair enough then, if it works, go for it.