Spokes

That may well be my most nerdy post to date.

Pillar XRS X-TRA 1442

I'll post back with my personal (and unqualified) opinion of the spokes.

Recieved these yesterday, and started lacing with them last night. Initial inpection, shows nice clean threads, and exact dimensions. The black colouring seems deeper than on black DT spokes that I've used. But thats hardly an important consideration. The spokes are 2.2mm at the bladed section as opposed to DT aerolite and CX-rays, which are 2.3mm. This may cost me aero points, but as they were a tight fit in my Tune mig 70's drillings. I'm kinda glad of the 0.1mm TBH.

I discovered, slightly annoyingly, that my Mig 70 is the dedicated radial version. I had planned on lacing all my spokes heads in, but the drillings are only machined for the spoke heads on the outside of the flanges. So heads out it is (Does at least look better). The slightly shorter shoulder (same dimensions as Aerolites), along with the tight, asymmetric, hub drilling, meant that the head and shoulder fitted super snug in the hub.

The stiffness of the spokes feels the same as other bladed spokes to me. So considering the price compared to DT's or Sapims. I think I've just found my new favourate spokes.

the nerdy review is finished, you can wake up now ;)

....
I discovered, slightly annoyingly, that my Mig 70 is the dedicated radial version. I had planned on lacing all my spokes heads in, but the drillings are only machined for the spoke heads on the outside of the flanges. So heads out it is (Does at least look better).

...

^ this post is useless without pictures ;)

Just to check by 'heads in' you mean the heads facing the inside of the flange right?

And on another note, I'm trying to find some spokes in a matt silver - to match cpx12s on miche hubs. Really struggling. My only thoughts were Ti, altho I think the cost may be excruciating!

I am officially the worlds worst wheelbuilder. finally laced up the 2nd set of spokes i got for a wheel (first were way to long, wrong measurements, i'm thick) and these are about two mm two short. LBS says they may be able to sort it with longer nipples. fml.

^ this post is useless without pictures ;)

Its going to take me a while to lace the wheels. As I am using internal nipples and washers, which are mad fiddly to get on the ends of the spokes.

Just to check by 'heads in' you mean the heads facing the inside of the flange right?

Yeah. The conical edging to the drilling is only present on the outside of the flange. So the conical shaped head will only bed nicely on this side. It does mean that the spoke shoulder is better supported. Which is where 99% of spokes break. It is likely designed to leave extra material on the flange to better cope with radial lacing.

And on another note, I'm trying to find some spokes in a matt silver - to match cpx12s on miche hubs. Really struggling. My only thoughts were Ti, altho I think the cost may be excruciating!

The cost and the loss of stiffness I'd say. I read from a relible source that for a weight saving of a few grams, you can loose a sizable amount of stiffnes. Just not worth it IMHO.
Pillar do a lot of colours for their stainless steel spokes. The place I got mine from only do black though.

I am officially the worlds worst wheelbuilder.

Took me over an hour to lace 10 spokes yesterday. I'm not quiting my day job just yet.

Cheers for that.

Really looking fwd to seeing your wheels built up. I've always loved the idea of internal nips, ever since I read about them on Royces site... never really found any good pics of them built up tho. Probably something to do them being internal.

BTW - if anyone googles internal nipples at work, remember to use safe search!

I am sure I read on some wheel building guide that the

conical edging to the drilling
is to facilitate the bending of the spoke rather so the head fits snugly? So if all those bits drilled out are on the outside, the spoke head should go on the inside?

(Please bear in mind my earlier post when reading this)

If you're building radial or full crows foot you can choose whether you go inside or out.

Otherwise its going to be in, out, in, out...etc...

radial - heads out

3x = in, out, in, out....

Obviously the radial pic isn't the best bc the back of the hub is slotted, but you get the idea?

Cheers for that.

Really looking fwd to seeing your wheels built up. I've always loved the idea of internal nips, ever since I read about them on Royces site... never really found any good pics of them built up tho. Probably something to do them being internal.

BTW - if anyone googles internal nipples at work, remember to use safe search!

I picked internal for three reasons.

1)It means a smaller drilling in the rim, and more material holding the nipple in. So my carbon rim can cope with higher spoke tension?
2)Looks really neat.
3)Fancied a challenge/ curious.

I am sure I read on some wheel building guide that the is to facilitate the bending of the spoke rather so the head fits snugly? So if all those bits drilled out are on the outside, the spoke head should go on the inside?

(Please bear in mind my earlier post when reading this)

Yes. But if the flange narrows to its edge. There is plenty of room for the shoulder without the extra machining. I tried but the head of the spoke sticks too far out.

If you're building radial or full crows foot you can choose whether you go inside or out.
Obviously the radial pic isn't the best bc the back of the hub is slotted, but you get the idea?

This what I thought, and preferred heads in, for the extra bracing angle. It could be the shape of the spoke head thinking about it. But the inside drilling does look fecking narrow. Havent had a chance to cheak the rear hub yet.

Finished my wheels (at last). Considering the amount of work gone into them, they look pretty understated, which I like. At just over 1.3Kg the pair, they feel mad light too.

**Front **
20H Tune mig 70, radial laced, with 20 pillar PSR X-TRA 1422 bladed spokes, with internal nipples, to a 20H OEM kevlar reinforced 48mm deep carbon clincher rim.

Rear
32H Tune mag 180, NDS laced 1x, with 8 pillar PSR X-TRA 1425 bladed spokes, DS laced 3x, with 16 of the same spokes, with internal nipples to a 24H OEM kevlar reinforced 48mm deep carbon clincher rim.


I wanted to try and build toughness into these wheels without paying weight penalties. Carbon clincher rims are great but dont like high spoke tensions. So I went with internal nipples, as this looked to be a more resiliant set-up. The rims should cope with resonable tyre pressure too, thanks to the kevlar reinforcement, and the hubs are renowned to be tough for their weight. The slightly wider spokes on the rear should help too.

Just need a frame, groupo, + finishing kit, and I'll be in roadie heaven.....

^ very nice.

good to see them finished.

Any ideas/plans for the frame?

Cheers, must admitt I really happy with how they turned out. The DS and NDS spoke tensions are incredibly well balanced. So from a building perspective, the triplet pattern is a very clever one. Just hope they ride well.

I'd like a 'race orientated' Ti frame, of which there many that fit the bill (Litespeed Archon, Moots RSL, Lynskey 430/helix OS, Sabbath mondays child etc etc).

The Rikulau Master 3Al/2.5V frameset is tempting at just over £1k for custom. Delivery and duty will hike that up some though.

The Sabbath Silk road pro, is a really good match for the custom geometry I've come up with, but OTP, so thats pretty high up on my list. The Qoroz race won is really sexy, and would double as a nice triathlon bike (considering doing some tri's if I can improve my swimming).

Basically I'll start saving intensively, and see what comes up. Still havent written high-end steel off TBH.

Just wanted to say thanks to this thread for pointing me in the direction of Cycle Basket. Much cheaper for spokes than anywhere else I've found.

Finished my wheels (at last). Considering the amount of work gone into them, they look pretty understated,.....

They look lovely, and having read your earlier posts here and elsewhere I hope you get rolling on them soonish. The work you put into getting them right has been exemplary, and a little bit humbling... Awesome.

On the conical flange drilling topic, one of my fave gurus, Roger Musson of Wheelpro, says that the countersunk side is to accommodate the elbow of the spoke, but on an aluminium flange it's ok to put the head into it as the material beds down ok either way.
I'm no expert, but would have done exactly as you have, and gone for a nicer looking circle of heads.

They look lovely, and having read your earlier posts here and elsewhere I hope you get rolling on them soonish. The work you put into getting them right has been exemplary, and a little bit humbling... Awesome.

Kind words, thanks.

On the conical flange drilling topic, one of my fave gurus, Roger Musson of Wheelpro, says that the countersunk side is to accommodate the elbow of the spoke, but on an aluminium flange it's ok to put the head into it as the material beds down ok either way.
I'm no expert, but would have done exactly as you have, and gone for a nicer looking circle of heads.

This sounds right to me. I was actually swung to the pillar spokes because of their short elbows. Which should give them a more snug fit in the hub drillings. This probably exasperated the issues of trying to lace the front hub heads in though. The head was'nt entering the drilling, preventing the curve of the elbow from clearing the other side of the drilling. This causing the spoke to point outwards, away from the rim. Would have needed more bending then I was happy with to pull it off, and would have looked 'botched'.

I've ordered some HB-7600 hubs and some H+Son SL42 rims, 32h, but I'm having trouble finding the dimensions I need in order to calculate spoke length.

Google tells me that the ERD of the rims is 557mm, but I'm having trouble with the hubs. I thought there would be a Shimano tech document pdf with the info, but I can't find one. I did get some details from a spreadsheet linked to from Sheldon, but the figures for the rear had the flanges offset, but as far as I know, the ones I have coming are fixed/fixed and symmetrical.

Does anyone know where I can find all the info I need to pump into a spoke calculator or even know or can calculate the length I need to build them 3x?

I'm looking for black nipples (LOL) Can't seem to find any that arn't the dt swiss 'pro lock' anywhere.
Also after black spokes, but CRC has dt swiss ones.

Any help on the black nippes? Ta.

I think I managed to get a cheap pot of painted black brass nipples from either Merlin or Wooly hat shop. one of the two. was about £8 for 250x or somesuch. only used a few and the rest have been lost to the great house mess monster.
You can get anodized alu ones in any colour too, but they are more money and you need something to stop the spoke & nipple welding together over time (theres a proper compound).

My ridiculous wheels are nearly together, but thanks to a spec change after I've already bought the spokes, my rear wheel will be 2mm too long on one side, and 3mm too long on the other.

Before I start building, how much do you want to bet the nipples will bottom out before there's proper tension in the wheel? £1/£5/£10/50x mars bars

yup 3mm, even 2mm too long = bottom out nipples failure.

waiting another week+ for more spokes don't think so. Break out the tiny tiny 'ickle tap & die set.

So about to get some spokes to lace gran compes on open pros. 36h 3x

Front comes out at 288.8 and rear at 289.1 on dt swiss calculator

Do i go for 288 or 290? With thought to nipple length... (dt calculates at 12m) but provided with 14m on CRC, so will 288 be fine?

Should be fine with 288s.