Cycling-Related Strength & Conditioning

Where does cheesecake scoffing fit in to this regime?

I got hungry. It was like I sort of fancied some cheese, but wondered if cake might be more satisfying, and then a glorious hybrid with a massive price reduction appeared, a beatific vision behind the sneeze screen.

There is no place for 'what ifs' in my life.

@BMMF

I didnt realise you were training in a bedroom type setup, it all makes sense now with the front squats n all. Lack of equipment and all that.

Sounds like you are working well with what you have.

But remember that most of your power "should" come from you posterior chain, as the hip is the centre of power for your whole body. The body is basically a big hinge, with the hip at its centre.

The most effective way to train for strength and power is to always do movements that use the largest amount of muscle mass/bodyparts and allows you to load it with the most weight. Back squats are always superior, they will do everything a front squat does and more. But I undestand your constraints. You may also want to try simple step ups onto a high box/bench. They might workout better than front squats for your purpose.

If you feel that your posterior chain (hamstrings & glutes) are too dominant on the bike, I would examine your bike fit & positioning rather than trying to make your quads stronger. Localised muscle development from an 8 week strength cycle is not likely to help you that much anyway because cycling is such a different activity. But you are likely to feel a benefit is unified muscle recruitment and full-out power efforts.

One last note, ditch the percentages. Most people should be able to walk into a gym and deadlift BW during their first session, if taught correct technique. For example, I got my sister to lift 10xBW on her VERY FIRST deadlift session. Of course she only weighs 45kg, but for anyone around 70kg 1xBW with no prior training should be possible with the right cues. (Not that I recommend trying)

You are pre-calculating projected percentages of a BW deadlift? You should breeze past BW within a few sessions at most, even if you are old & creaky or training pretty hard in other activities.

Most people should be able to walk into a gym and deadlift BW during their first session, if taught correct technique. For example, I got my sister to lift 10xBW on her VERY FIRST deadlift session. Of course she only weighs 45kg, but for anyone around 70kg 1xBW with no prior training should be possible with the right cues. (Not that I recommend trying)

You are pre-calculating projected percentages of a BW deadlift? You should breeze past BW within a few sessions at most, even if you are old & creaky or training pretty hard in other activities.

So your sister lifter 450kg first time ever, I would get in touch with Roy Castle and Norris Mcwhirter then. But I suppose you mean 10 reps of 45kg.

Either way, a lot of this is misleading and incorrect, If you don't stop spouting such utter bullshit, I'm going to ban you from this forum.

@DFP - my bike fit's okay really. I have congenital dysplasia of the vastus medialis, so my posterior chain has an unfair advantage. I'm risking weird shit with patellar displacement if I continue to heavily rely on my glutes and hams for force production.

The percentages were based on this: I have a barbell with 55kg of weight to play with. I'm happy for that to be the ceiling for deadlifts, and for my front squat ceiling to be 10kg lower. These weights cause noticeable positive, but admittedly subtle improvements to my core well-being and on-the-bike stability, without undue risk to my skeleto-muscular well-being (based on history of pelvic injury, ankle injury, knee injury, and aforementioned dysplasia). It also avoids piling on lean mass, which just makes me slower on the road and renders half my wardrobe useless; and avoids heavily taxing the CNS, and fucking up what little on-the-bike training time I have available.

I don't doubt that I could quicky progress to a 1RM of 2xBW for deads, and 1.5BW for back squats in the appropriate setting, but holisitically speaking, I'm not interested in doing so.

There is research out there which supports the idea that the sort of percentages of BW I'm working with are enough to help core stability, joint health, and smooth out particular sport-specific anatomical imbalances. I don't have time to dig through the e-journals right now.

......avoids heavily taxing the CNS.

I think this is a really important factor to take into account when adding resistance training to your cycling.
I have to work really hard on maintaining my strength as i'm not gifted in holding onto muscle at all. My lower back is my weak point (in fact, I think RPM identified this at a past track session) and i really have to reduce my volume of training when lifting. The difference in fatigue between cycle training and resistance training is really eye opening.

It seems like you are achieving a good balance BMMF, and are certainly aware of what needs to be addressed.

I don't doubt that I could quicky progress to a 1RM of 2xBW for deads, and 1.5BW for back squats in the appropriate setting, but holisitically speaking, I'm not interested in doing so.

I hear what your saying, but dont sell yourself short like that. A 1.5xBW squat and a 2xBW deadlift are the sort of numbers that are very attainable and suitable for maintaining in off-season weight training for someone who doesnt like to be in the weight room too often.

A single cycle of 8 weeks will probably not be enough to get there (im sure you could get a 1.5xBW dead in 8weeks), if you are not doing strength work in between these strength periods. But if you do a few odds and sods in-season or in between strength blocks, like back extensions, ab work, pull ups etc and possibly the odd leg press or step-up.

Then working with numbers like a 2xBW deadlift, every time you come back round to gym time, would be very possible and there would be a host of benefits to having that sort of staple-background strength knocking around.

Lifting weights is one of the few things where process and progress and very clear and visceral. I realise cycling (particulary road cycling) is one of the few sports that doesnt benefit that much from weight room strength, but if your going to do it, you want to maximise productivity. Heavier weights will have other health benefits too, such as bone strength etc. For most sports athletes a 1xBW press, a 2xBW squat and a 3xBW deadlift are good baseline targets and very attainable.(I know that Vicky Pendleton can powerclean at least BW which is similar to yours)These helps bring an athlete closer to peak performance. Even if an athlete does not have the time or recovery capacity to get these, if they are bothering to do gym work they should at least try.

Good luck with your training and riding, I shall stop bothering you now. If you have any questions feel free to PM.

A 1.5xBW squat and a 2xBW deadlift are the sort of numbers that are very attainable and suitable for maintaining in off-season weight training for someone who doesnt like to be in the weight room too often.

This may be true for regular gym goers but it seems rather high for cyclists using weights for strength.
Amateur track sprinters may only manage 2 gym session per week because the really important stuff is done on the bike.

Even elite professional sprinters are "only" squatting around 2x BW for a 1RM.

I think this is a really important factor to take into account when adding resistance training to your cycling.
I have to work really hard on maintaining my strength as i'm not gifted in holding onto muscle at all. My lower back is my weak point (in fact, I think RPM identified this at a past track session) and i really have to reduce my volume of training when lifting. The difference in fatigue between cycle training and resistance training is really eye opening.

If you really want to adapt you have to lift more, till whatever your lifting now is barely a warm-up. At that point your back will be twice as strong in during long periods of no weight training at all. So you can focus on in season cycling with either no weight training, or very low volume training without feeling fatigued or overtrained, because your true capacity (what you have already done) is so much greater. Strength is perhaps the most persistent of of physical ability attributes.

This may be true for regular gym goers but it seems rather high for cyclists using weights for strength.
Amateur track sprinters may only manage 2 gym session per week because the really important stuff is done on the bike.

Even elite professional sprinters are "only" squatting around 2x BW for a 1RM.

Even elite in terms of accomplishment in their sport, does not nececessarily mean they are close to the limits of their biological ability. They can do more if they work harder. Many of them clearly know this, as trackies are quite famous for pushing themselves in the gym. Videos of Forstemann or Jamie Staff can be seen pushing big numbers on youtube.

Also, the bigger/heavier you are the harder it will be to achieve mutiples of your bodyweight, as the recovery demands are greater. And the laws of diminishing returns very much apply here, the closer you get to your biological potential the harder it will be to progress and the less value/benefit you will get out of doing so. 2xBW squat is very much within the "pretty easy" threshold for any athlete, its only after that when things become hard and not as "worth the effort".

Either way, a lot of this is misleading and incorrect, If you don't stop spouting such utter bullshit, I'm going to ban you from this forum.

If everyone who pretended to know about stuff on the internet was banned then the whole edifice would collapse by teatime

If you really want to adapt you have to lift more, till whatever your lifting now is barely a warm-up.

I understand what you're saying here. To some extent at least.
The thing is, I can't see 2 x BW deadlifts as ever being a warm up. I'm happy rolling that out, but i can't transfer that power to the bike, because of the position i ride in. I am in no way trying to compare here, but i have Cav-like issues when i race. I'm sure my power output is quite low, but my position enables me to charge hard.....

I would say that my main concern at the moment, is to work on strengthening my back extensors whilst lengthening my hamstrings, as a low, low position on the bike is taking its toll. More postural for me at the moment!

If everyone who pretended to know about stuff on the internet was banned then the whole edifice would collapse by teatime

And your point?

If everyone who pretended to know about stuff on the internet was banned then the whole edifice would collapse by teatime

I was being slightly facetious with him ;) though he's till waaaay off with a lot of that jibber jabber.

Even elite in terms of accomplishment in their sport, does not nececessarily mean they are close to the limits of their biological ability.

How do you define "limit" ?
I know factual numbers from elite track sprinters on the GB squad, should I tell them that their 1RM is too low and DFP says "work harder"? we are talking cycling specific strength and conditioning on this thread, not a lifetime of power lifting.

2xBW squat is very much within the "pretty easy" threshold for any athlete.

Hooey. Why do you come up with things like this?

Yeah. I have to say DFP, that 2xBW squat is not "pretty easy" at all.

Happy to see the video of DFP doing a full 2x BW squat though...

2xBW squat is very much within the "pretty easy" threshold for any athlete ".

On that basis I might as well give up training .

[ame="http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6721921"]can you squat double your bodyweight?[/ame]

55% of body builders say no.

I am moving this week so havnt got time right now to fully respond to the recent posts here, just a quick note to DFP

take a step back and think about your audeience here.

2 x bw is NOT easy and would be some way out of the reach of most that read this forum.

Happy to admit I have never quite got there (175kg max squat at 92kg) although I have some back limitations and my leg press at 450kg x 3 is nearer the mark, but I am a world class masters racer and I train HARD.

You really need to think a little more about the knowledge you are trying to apply here as its being lost in the inacurate and frankly false claims you tend to make.

Yeah. I have to say DFP, that 2xBW squat is not "pretty easy" at all.

Pretty easy to take any reasonably athletic person to a 2xBW squat within a couple years of weight training. Some people will get there quicker, I have been training an injured runner at the moment (does 800-1500m etc) who has not done anything in the gym before besides some high rep Dumb Bell stuff, ab work etc..

He had just joined my gym (which is decently setup for weights) and was lacking direction in how to train. He asked me how to squat, I taught him and have been giving him some very basic advice about training and a bit of coaching here and there.

During the past couple of months he has got up to around 170kg on the squat (at 90kg BW). He is clearly VERY gifted and barely required much instruction. I expect him to sail past 200kg during the next few months.

My progress however has become a little stale around the 1.5xBW mark, despite a couple years of training. But I am as far from athletic as you are likely to find, and only started lifting as rehab after I tore two ligaments in my knee. I can barely get much force out of my right leg (I damaged nerves too). But I still expect to get to 2xBW in a few months. I can already front squat 1xBW. The fact that I have been working around many problems (theres more!) has helped me become a rather good coach. Anything I can do, I can get someone else to do better.

Someone capable of being a competive athlete is usually genetically gifted enough to hit a 2xBW squat easily. For those who struggle, it is even MORE valuable to work hard enough to catch up with competitors natural genetic gifts. Strength is perhaps the easiest component of athletic ability to develop, and with more strength = more power.

Ffs

The fact that I have been working around many problems (theres more!) has helped me become a rather good coach. Anything I can do, I can get someone else to do better.

So you claim to be a good coach yet lack the understanding of the fundamentals of *actual *coaching.

Well, all i can say is I'm going to work on my warm up sets.
Then, I'm going to use that warm up weight to do some plyo's.

Fuck yeah.

I give up. Unless anyone is interested in seeing videos of some of the people I have coached, just ban me please.