HGV-Cyclist incidents

I can only echo the sentiments of sumo and I find your comments both inappropriate and distasteful. Glisten, you are also showing incredible ignorance if you think a helmet could possibly help any ride in collision with a truck (or even a car). I suggest you go away and do some trolling somewhere else

I'm sorry I rose to this. Please can we take this somewhere else.

No more troll feeding.

please go away.

and edit your post.

.

This isn't the place for this discussion. Could you please show some respect and edit the post?

Calm down. Perfectly sensible comment and observation, and topic for debate, but best had elsewhere.

I thought this was a place for free speech, I didn't realise it was all left as a tribute to Dan as I'd come on here through another link and didn't read all the thread. It's affected me heaps and I can only hope the outcome of the whole thing results in lives being saved. I'll delete the other comment, not wanting to offend anyone.

Here.
Take it outside.

http://www.lfgss.com/thread18165.html

Moved the troll out of the thread for Dan.

I thought this was a place for free speech, I didn't realise it was all left as a tribute to Dan as I'd come on here through another link and didn't read all the thread. It's affected me heaps and I can only hope the outcome of the whole thing results in lives being saved. I'll delete the other comment, not wanting to offend anyone.

Glisten,

The problem with posting in the Rider down threads are that they are frequently seen by friends and family of those involved in the incidents or those that die. They quite simply are not the place for debate, speculation, politics or the like.

There is no such thing as free speech in the UK (go try and find somewhere in UK law that permits it), and certainly you don't have right to it on here (if we think you're trolling we're going to ban your sorry arse).

Certainly you can participate in debate, but don't consider the rider down threads as the place for that. It will always be the wrong place for speculation about fault, especially when there are real people affected by these incidents reading the threads (the family and friends).

I really hope you have heart enough to comprehend this.

I think we have an opportunity here to talk to someone who holds a lot of views that we disagree with but which are common none the less. Posting in the Rider Down thread was a mistake, obviously, but let's not let that stop us discussing stuff now the post has been moved. We need to be willing to talk to people like Glisten who have strong views about cycling - not all of which are entirely without merit.
We need to separate this entirely from Dan's death though. If Glisten can do that then I am certainly willing to talk to her/him about cycling in London and about her/his perceptions of it.

Am I allowed to laugh at this yet?

Listen Glisten

Oh, and well said Will. Worth a discussion.

Nothing Glisten wrote deserves further discussion, sorry I rose to it

Why does it not? So, every time someone writes about cycling, on a cycling forum, in a way we don't like, or disagree with, we should just ignore it? Glisten has come here and raised his/her concerns about cycling - not all of them invalid even on the face of it. If we are too grand to talk to people like Glisten then we are too grand to talk to exactly the sort of people we need to get on our side.

Sage stuff Will.

Is it possible to move his/her comment to an appropriate topic to discuss this further?

moreover, while there are cyclists who may not realise how dangerous it is to undertake certain vehicles in junction, the motorists have the power to prevent such incident from happening, such as the HGV drivers.

You can try and teach every single cyclists out there to not undertake HGV, but teaching HGV drivers have a much bigger impact.

Is it possible to move his/her comment to an appropriate topic to discuss this further?

it has been, that's why it's here, not where it was.

Whoop, did not see that.

I find it odd for a new member to come in here and talk about how bad cyclists is, it sound like he/she got a chip on their shoulder that they wanted to get off.

Hi, I was one of the few people in the area at the time. It was busy with motorists as always but actually a quiet moment for the Junction when it happened. I didn't see what happened and so cannot be a witness but I did hear it happening. The emergency services deserve a special mention. The police were here literally in less than 20 secs and an ambulance in 45 seconds. The lights had just changed from red to green and the lorry was the first vehicle in a queue of traffic. I'm not sure where Dan was when the lights were red, either on the inside of the truck or in the middle going straight on. It is a total tragedy and I'm sorry for all his family and friends, sincerely. It's a lovely memorial.
However, I'm also sorry for the driver of the truck. It must be appauling to have to endure being involved in something like this. Everyone seems to blame the driver but the truth is there's no way to know how responsible for the accident the driver was. I'm not saying the cyclist in this incident was responsible either because I was there and I don't know. By far the group of road users I see breaking the highway code and in a league to themselves are cyclists. How many cyclists fail to wear helmets? Jump red lights? As a pedestrian walking along Kingsland Road the number of times a cyclist has jumped a light and is trying to get past me whilst I'm crossing. Cyclists in the middle of the road not wearing anything reflective yelling at you to get out of the road! This week I've paid special attention to the lousy cycling going on and have observed a bike weaving through stationay traffic, a bike at a snails pace going past a bus stop and nearly being hit by a bus, several red light jumpers, one of whom had a small child attached to their back and was flying down the road.

May I suggest cyclists are made to sit a test just like any other road user? How much of learning to drive a vehicle involves increasing awareness of the danger of blind spots and respecting the highway code?

Again, thoughts go out to you.

It's called Bikeability.

Since the invention of the bicycle we have been able to ride as soon as we are able on the highway.
To imply that people need to be trained before they ride implies we should take some responsibility for other people killing us if we don't.

Glisten criticises people on bikes without a helmet, shouting at a ped whilst cycling in the middle of the road (not wearing a fluoro vest!), a cyclist cycling slowly past a bus stop, and weaving in and out of stationery traffic.
This informs me where they are coming from, and I have no wish to debate those issues with them.
Especially not here.

Adroit

I frequently see cyclists put themselves in great danger, filtering down the left hand side of lorries for example. I do not believe cycle training should be mandatory, but there is a great deal that people can learn and benefit by being trained. We are not always totally innocent parties when accidents occur.

There may be times when the cyclist does have to take some responsibility - such as being hit after running a red light.

Since the invention of the bicycle we have been able to ride as soon as we are able on the highway.

***A lot of things have changed since then. No one on here (as far as I know) is in favour of compulsory training or licensing. That doesn't mean that training and other forms of education for cyclists should be dismissed. *
**
To imply that people need to be trained before they ride implies we should take some responsibility for other people killing us if we don't.

***No, it doesn't. It suggests that maybe there is something to be gained from training; either before you start riding on the road when you are a child or later when you are already doing it as an adult. There is a big difference between saying a collision was your fault and saying there was something you could have done to avoid it.
If you are not willing to debate with people who are ill informed then what is the point of debate? Should we just be happy to chat among ourselves? **
*
.
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Glisten criticises people on bikes without a helmet, shouting at a ped whilst cycling in the middle of the road (not wearing a fluoro vest!), a cyclist cycling slowly past a bus stop, and weaving in and out of stationery traffic.

What Glisten criticised are simply the bad apple.

Every mode of transport, be it's bicycle, car, buses, tractor, walking or even pogos stick will (and I mean will) have a irresponsible individual.

You can says the same with drivers who jumped red light, make a left turn without incidating, forget to turn on their headlight, exceed the speed limit, aggressive driving, using a mobile phone and/or other distracting device while driving, poorly maintained vehicles, not having insurance, illegal number plates... etc.

The list goes on, applied it to every mode of transport and it'll be the same.

The upside is that cyclists very rarely (almost never) cause the death of other, as well as peds and pogo sticker.

Training will obviously benefit a lot of people but it is never going to happen.
I know, I am a bikeability instructor.
And anyway 5 hours to level 2 in Berkshire is not going to matter one jot in Mare street.

So it is incumbent on every other road user to look out for people who might not be totally competent, especially if they are vulnerable.

It is a law that applies to a farmers field (occupiers liability) but not to the highway, where the risks almost all emanate from vehicles driven without due care.

It needs a cultural change to accept cyclists as legitimate road users, not the current situation where the CPS Clarkson et al pervade the myth that cyclists shouldn't be there until they achieve an arbitrarily determined standard.

Even when a cyclist makes a mistake it should not end in their death. Sadly it does and when it does cyclists are tarnished as a group.

The evidence though is the group that needs the training is licensed, the drivers, and awareness of vulnerable road users is not a part of the current training of them (although topping up the windscreen washer fluid is)