Motorcycles in your bus lane

Not so sure Ed; not getting a mirror as a substitute for looking over your shoulder is good advice for trainees. But, given that the mirror would not be a substitute for that in your case, maybe it would help? I don't know if it would or not but we have to be careful not to be dogmatic. One of my colleagues has a mirror on her bike.

My main concern with mirror is the habit of looking in it rather than looking back, which in itself I though was a bad idea.

However I'll be having a mirror when I go to South America where it'll be quite useful especially between Colombia and Chile.

I don't really want to do that thing where you pick apart people's words...but I'm going to.

You said you have to keep looking over your shoulder, and sometimes in between the last time you last did it and the next time you have to react puts you endanger because you cant hear things coming.

I'm saying if you add wing mirrors it will help to minimise that problem.

Are you saying that bicycles need to have mirror in order to work with the motorcyclists?

No. It will help if you find them creeping up on you without you noticing.

Also the downside with mirror is that you won't look back often

Pretty flawed argument IMO. With a mirror you don't need to look back you just need to check your blind spots. Anyone who doesn't check their blindspots isnt driving/riding/cycling safely. I just don't beleive those ppl would be affected either way.

However I'll be having a mirror when I go to South America where it'll be quite useful especially between Colombia and Chile.

Errr... right?

On a more positive note Columbia > Chile. Awesome. Just be careful with the altitude, you need to work up to it. I've been toying with the idea of cyclin round lake titikaka.

My main concern with mirror is the habit of looking in it rather than looking back, which in itself I though was a bad idea.

.

It's horses for courses Ed. If your hearing presents a particular problem in particular circumstances then it's ok to decide that you need to try something else - something that for other people in other circumstances may be a bad idea.

I dont see that it doesnt help - its what we do on motorbikes! Mirrors would obviously be pretty usefull on a bicycle, but as they look like cack i doubt many outside the OAP rando market who already use em would be interested

Have the LCC/CTC members been asked/polled to see if this is what they want?

This ^

I'm an lcc member and frankley I was pissed off with how often the lcc email/cyclist mag led with the motorbikes in the bus lanes. I'm not a motorcyclis, but it was way too much 'every right minded cyclist should think this' when frankly it's not a big deal.

I've had two accidents with 2 wheeledmotor vehicles, both mopeds in bus lanes, before the trial. One decided to turn left across me... Luckily for me I'm big and have spent a lot of time at polo practicing crashing into people so I took him out with my shoulder and carried on... The other time was messier but not much.

Instead of time spend on this can the lcc do a 'keep motorbikes out of cycle lanes' campaign as that pisses me off way more.

^ i have skimmed through it.

well done charlie lcc.

keep up the good work.

i for one really admire the work you do.

blue quinn says ...... As for noise pollution, it appears from a quick web search to be no worse than buses (at 75-85Db depending on which google hit you read)

but buses can carry 40 - 50 people or some other big number of people whereas motorbikes can only carry two. and usually just one.

so the noise output per person is greater - which is selfish.

and those on the receiving end of noise pollution suffer.

The pollution study is irrelevant as it is based on a 6 year old question and 9 year old data which predates the introduction of Euro II and III (and therefore any) emissions standards for motorcycles. Leaving aside that they have deliberately omitted buses (odd given it's about bus lanes) for which the same pollution figures are a disgrace, It is also skewed against motorcycles being a measure of emissions per passenger and vehicle KM. Most motorcycles will only carry one person, and motorcycles travel far fewer km than cars do. If you were to look at the total amount of pollution caused by motorcycles per year: i.e. how much worse the actual air quality is because of them, you would find the figure far lower than any other form of motorised transport.

These figures will have reduced even further and will keep reducing. Motorcycles sold since 2006 will all meet euro 3, most sold now are likely to meet euro 4 as it will be mandatory next year. For example catalytic convertors and fuel injection are now fitted to a lot of new bikes. This should see emissions level drop to those of cars and possibly below them. Very few 2 strokes are available anymore which should see PM10 emissions drop to negligible levels.

You're right that motorcyclists are by far and away the most vulnerable group of road users. Which is why there should be more done to preserve their safety, not less.

As for noise pollution, it appears from a quick web search to be no worse than buses (at 75-85Db depending on which google hit you read)

So what are the arguments for motorycles? They look good, go fast, make a lovely sound, are practical, quick through traffic and above all, FUN.

i dont like any mode of transport that causes noise but i read a study by the uk noise association that said motorbike are disproportionately noisy.

You read something by a noise lobby that complained about the noise of something? Who'd have thought?

Buses spend most of their journeys stopping and starting, and it's when pulling away that they emit not only a huge amount of noise (over 90Db - about the same as a nightclub dancefloor), but also a staggering amount of pollution. They are doing this every few hundred yards for the entire length of their journey. They are also on the road all day and all night, every 5 minutes. For most of their journey most buses are not at capacity either.
They are recognised as a considerably greater noise nuisance than the relatively small number of motorcycles in the city, the vast majority of which are well inside their permitted noise levels (which I believe are listed in one of the documents I have linked to upthread). It's something like 80Db at wide open throttle.

Incidentally the last 3 bikes I owned were really quiet - more like sewing machines than motor vehicles - incapable of getting anywhere near 80db with the stock exhausts. I put Triumph's own "loud" pipes on my current one, and they are still below this limit and approved for road use, but now it sounds lovely. It's a loud noise (if I want it to be!) but a fantastic one. There's nothing lovely about the sound of a bus engine.

i dont like any mode of transport that causes noise.

https://www.lfgss.com/thread58062.html

blue quinn says ...... As for noise pollution, it appears from a quick web search to be no worse than buses (at 75-85Db depending on which google hit you read)

but buses can carry 40 - 50 people or some other big number of people whereas motorbikes can only carry two. and usually just one.

so the noise output per person is greater - which is selfish.

and those on the receiving end of noise pollution suffer.

i dont like any mode of transport that causes noise but i read a study by the uk noise association that said motorbike are disproportionately noisy.

What has any of this got to do with motorcycles in the bus lane - you dont like motorbikes, fine, but whether you like them or not has nothing to do with this argument

What has any of this got to do with motorcycles in the bus lane

Absolutely zero.

As it happens I rode this very section, in the bus lane, with about 6 or 7 other bikers (as in at the same time as, not 'with' them, on tuesday night. Nobody broke any speed limits, everyone was observant and alert at junctions and gaps in the traffic, everyone gave cyclists plenty of room and consideration. To be fair I did find this remarkable and novel, but I think maybe the safety message is actually getting through. You're only safer if you ride sensibly.

I notice this as well, and I attribute it more to motorists noticing larger groups of cyclists more and working around them better than single cyclists. When Wigan Will and I did my commute, I felt that people were giving us a wider berth and being more considerate about how quickly the merged back in front of us. The very next day, following the same protocols as when he was with me, motorists were less careful, drove closer to me and faster, both passing and merging back in front of me.

So what should decide whether motorbikes are allowed in bid lanes?

(as mentioned previously I think they should be allowed in them.

My other problem with 2WPV (haven't taken stats to decide which, motorbikes or scooters, and I wouldn't always know which is which) is exactly what Ed is complaining about - we are taught to take the lane in situations where we feel to do so will increase our safety. And then I can guarantee that these jerks will race by you, on your right (at least they're not undertaking!), between you and the next lane of traffic, coming FAR too close at too high a speed, with no warning whatsoever. I want them loud so I can have at least a tiny bit of a warning!
I check behind myself regularly but powered vehicles can move VERY quickly and I can't look back often enough to keep myself up on the smaller of them.

My mother's a motorcycle rider, but she rides a Harley, has all sorts of bags and extra lights, like tail lights that blink when she is braking, and is basically part of a whale pod whether she's alone or with her husband/other bikers. She'd never surprise me in traffic, which is obviously a good thing.

so much hot air in this thread.

surely we'd be better off whinging - worry campaining for the jaywalking law to be introduced to the UK, making crossing the only scary places for motorcyclists and cyclists?

I ride motorcycles and have been nearly kill by all kinds of road users
I'm a driver and have been cut up and walked/pedalled/driven and ridden into by all types of road users
I cycle on the roads...and catch my drift?
I'm also a horse riders and I can say that motorcyclists are the only ones who - majority - stop / slow / give way, cyclists are the worst.

all personal experience, not hear say.

It's not what law goes where it's the policing of the law which matters, which very few people have commented on 'the minority of idiots ruining it for the majority'.

My other problem with 2WPV (haven't taken stats to decide which, motorbikes or scooters, and I wouldn't always know which is which) is exactly what Ed is complaining about - we are taught to take the lane in situations where we feel to do so will increase our safety. And then I can guarantee that these jerks will race by you, on your right (at least they're not undertaking!), between you and the next lane of traffic, coming FAR too close at too high a speed, with no warning whatsoever. I want them loud so I can have at least a tiny bit of a warning!
I check behind myself regularly but powered vehicles can move VERY quickly and I can't look back often enough to keep myself up on the smaller of them.

it wouldnt kill you to have a bar end mirror?

Taxi's are worse for the fast close passing than bikes

My mother's a motorcycle rider, but she rides a Harley, has all sorts of bags and extra lights, like tail lights that blink when she is braking, and is basically part of a whale pod whether she's alone or with her husband/other bikers. She'd never surprise me in traffic, which is obviously a good thing.

Harley riders get an unfair let off on the Db their exhausts can put out, the screamin' eagle pipes for the Harley are rediculously loud, louder than any sports bike, but ride both types of bike past a traffic plod and I know which will get the fine for the'noisy can'

also Harleys cannot be classed as fast moving vehicles :P

also Harleys cannot be classed as fast moving vehicles :P

lolz

taxi's are worse for the fast close passing than bikes

+2352353724830572

^ available day and night, airport runs a speciality

Slightly off-topic, but you could make a far more efficient bus by having a turbine (probably gas) that runs at a constant speed, charging a bank of batteries.

One electric motor per wheel and you'd have your propulsion system operating nice and efficiently- the turbine could spin at its most efficient rpm, rather than cycling up and down as the big derv engines do now.

A bus does need to carry a lot of people to make up for 2-3 mpg, if they were getting rather more than that they'd not be polluting as hugely as they do now, also.

Re motorbikes- I think we as cyclists are being a bit NIMBYish here as VV says, and on the whole I think that powered bikes should be allowed in the bus lane.

I would like any motorcyclist that thinks that doing 75mph down the OKR in the bus lane between cars on the right and cyclists on the left is acceptable to be dressed by Chris Crash for a year as punishment. And banned from riding a bike ever again.

I can see the cost to implement any such scheme would probably discount it immediately but could they not reduce the speed limit in bus lanes only to 20mph even where the road limit is higher? just a blanket limit, if you're in a marked bus lane the max speed is 20 on penalty of being condescended to by a copper.

taxi's and bikes could then use them to their hearts content so long as they stick to 20mph.

the cycle commuters most likely to take primary are the ones cruising between 16 and 2x mph so the cabs are less likely to try and buzz them to pass if they're already sitting at 20mph or a shade under.

I haven't given this a great deal of thought so I probably missed some glaring hole in the idea or it's been mentioned in the thread before and I've forgetten since I read it first.