Weird ASL Design for Elephant

http://www.citybeast.com/londoncyclists.html

think it's fairly accurate, there is another one but i can't remember where I saw it.

^Agreed. E&C can be mega fun. Thumping it through both loops and then up Kennington Park Road is very satisfying.

Unless of course, you over cook it and end up sliding along on your side in the middle lane.

It was OK though. I had hoops as a safety triangle. He did have to jump up and down, because he is less reflective (and marginally shorter trhan a dwarf with a hunch back lacing his shoes).

Best sentence ever Jay

There's 6 rider down threads for E&C. Above average?

Yeah, I'd agree it's well above average. But it's a fast, busy intersection of maybe eight roads, so it's going to be a potential danger spot. But then again, there are signs up around E&C saying "Cyclists dismount and use crossings" or similar. And we all do that, right kids?

I tend to cycle fast and right down the middle of the lanes around that roundabout, making myself very obvious (plus I'm a six foot man in dayglo, so I probably stand out). I don't hug the kerbs at all. Were the downed riders all caught kerbside? I know one definitely was.

That's an incidental discussion about the overall layout.

I'm on about the weird chamfers.

I just noticed today the ASLs outside Waterloo Station on the X-roads with The Cut and Lower Marsh all have the same chamfer. But it has a dotted line.

I tried taking a picture but my phone was almost out of juice and the feffing camera wouldn't work.

am i the only person that was thinking this?

No, because we are British. Some of us are British. Kinda.

Spotted this illustration of the new southern junction at the Elephant & Castle, which is due to start happening next month

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4584

A couple more images in the TfL document.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Elephant-and-castle-southern-roundabout.pdf

What's with the chamfer/fillet on the nearside of the rear line?

I've never seen it before and it doesn't conform with the TSRGD 2002 design, with which we're all familiar.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113am.gif

[The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002: Schedule 6, Road Markings]

Any ideas? Is it even legal?

(from the PR): "New paved areas next to the junction to provide shared space for pedestrians and cyclists" - off the pavement, onto the road, feed area . . . . .

hope that makes snese, brain booze disase.

"shared space for pedestrians and cyclists" like this . . . chamfer suggests a filtering thing

E&C is not a good place for cyclists. Especially cocky ones. I work beside it and have witnessed a number of accidents and at least one fatality. It's basically dangerous, not fun, (in the way that Vauxhall cross is not fun and nor is Hyde Park Corner) so let's cut the bravado. Bear in mind that while you may be a competant cyclist (and painfully cool), what looks to me like 50%+ of the motorists using it seem not to know where they are going, what exit they need or what lane to be in. Agreed that if you have to use it, use it at speed but FFS it ain't the cul-de-sac you grew up in and there are actually bike lanes that circumvent it. Although of course I do understand that the extra minutes mean dead-time in our incredibly important schedules.

^^^ Harsh, but fair.

E&C is not a good place for cyclists. Especially cocky ones. I work beside it and have witnessed a number of accidents and at least one fatality. It's basically dangerous, not fun, (in the way that Vauxhall cross is not fun and nor is Hyde Park Corner) so let's cut the bravado. Bear in mind that while you may be a competant cyclist (and painfully cool), what looks to me like 50%+ of the motorists using it seem not to know where they are going, what exit they need or what lane to be in. Agreed that if you have to use it, use it at speed but FFS it ain't the cul-de-sac you grew up in and there are actually bike lanes that circumvent it. Although of course I do understand that the extra minutes mean dead-time in our incredibly important schedules.

Miserable cunt.

I have been on the bars going round Hyde Park Corner and I can tell you it was painfully cool.

Ah, I missed this one. Repost maybe, but quality OP. On the 'chamfer', there are a couple of possibilities. My money would be on a mistake by the graphic designer who produced the illustration, as they often do. Either the 'chamfered' line should be broken, not solid, or it shouldn't be there at all.

If you read the TSRGD design specification (which was produced before they recognised certain problems that would rear their head at this location), you'll see that a lead-in lane is required for an ASL. As a lane on the inside of the left-turning lane would produce left hooks all the time, the design specifies a lane between the left-turning and first straight-ahead lanes, in this case the two nearside lanes. However, it is likely that cyclists would want to enter the ASL from the left-turning lane, too, e.g. if (wait for it) turning left. They haven't left enough room for a lead-in lane on that side, though, so that they might have included that chamfer to allow left-turning cyclists to enter the ASL on that side. In this case, the line should be broken, i.e. not part of the stop line.

ASL reservoirs are often implemented without any form of broken line, which means that no road user, including cyclists, may cross the first stop line. This is because engineers want to cram as many general traffic approach lanes in as possible. Some have therefore invented the 'chamfer', which of course is also against design guidance. It allows them to pretend that there's a stub of a lead-in lane without putting one in. If you just put a broken bit in of a straight-across stop line, this would cease to be a stop line at all for users of vehicles narrow enough to fit through that section, including motorcycles. (These are just some of the silly little technical/legal problems associated with ASLs.)

The other possibility is that that 'chamfer' shouldn't be there at all, perhaps as a holdover from an earlier design when the main lead-in lane wasn't in the drawing yet and the designer didn't understand the triangle's significance.

The idea was originally introduced partly because stop-line discipline by cyclists was always poor; people wanted to position themselves ahead of queues of motor traffic and filtered to the front beyond the stop line. The introduction of ASLs caused poor stop-line discipline by motorists, as many, if not most, stray into the reservoir ahead. Now what we have is the majority of ASLs being introduced at variance with design guidance, confusion about the rules (although of course there shouldn't be), lack of respect for those rules in the HC, and in practice not a lot of improvement on the ground, if any.

I personally don't waste time arguing for ASLs when campaigning on a traffic scheme. It's much better advice for cyclists to take their place in most short queues, anyway. For long queues, there generally is a better place near the front for them to position themselves than in the promised land of the ASL, which we think has a potential to increase unsafe filtering.

tynan's supposition is unlikely, although not impossible. I doubt that they would want to encourage cyclists to ride into the carriageway just ahead of the junction, ASL or not. There are facilities for moving from carriageway to footway called 'jug handles', usually found ahead of a toucan crossing (for peds and cyclists--'two can cross', geddit?) but not usually at junctions, more on links. It is possible that all crossings are toucan crossings, so that cyclists can ride all over the plaza-like footways (if they weren't permitted, it'd be an enforcement nightmare) and cross via the crossings. There also seems to be an on-footway cycle lane down the Walworth Road, which we would strongly discourage as a design, but that may be a mistake by the designer, too, as there doesn't seem to be a clear way indicated how to ride onto it from the carriageway.

If you find this sort of question interesting, cybertect, join the LCC's Cycle Planning and Engineering Committee, and you can discuss this sort of thing all day long. Enticing, no? ;)

Oliver
LCC

evening standard article 30/09/2010