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  • We can rationalise this all we wish, but at the end of the day what is important is the actual result in the real word.

    We might arrive at the death of 10,000 factory workers due to some legislation under the Conservatives and we might arrive at the death of 10,000 factory workers due to some legislation under New Labour - and there will always be people who argue that this policy (let's suppose a hypothetical reduction in worker safety) came from a different, more benign, place with New Labour and it came from a more nefarious place when put forward by the Conservatives.

    I agree that the actual result in the real world is important, but I think you are deliberately or otherwise attacking a straw man. The argument I was making is that, in the context of all of their policies, Labour is less susceptible to religious influence than the Conservative party. Probably.

    New Labour may be a jolly village green kinda religious party (something I don't agree with, but will let that go for now), but the results are what matter, thousands of schools and millions of children handed over to the church, 100,000 of our children in madrassas alone, a Prime Minister who believed he was telepathically communicating with the creator of the universe, taking advice on such issue as embarking on a war in the Middle East.

    Agreed, but you are trying to argue about the comparison between the two parties without actually attempting to quantify the degree to which both are religious / susceptible to religious influence. And, despite being a committed athiest, I'm wary of ascribing all of the blame for the Iraq war to Tony's faith.

    I can see only civil partnerships and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill here (and related Tory embarrassment).

    What else did you want?

    I am sure we could find example like this in any administration, as we could find collusion in torture, removal of civil rights, expansion of police powers, prosecuting illegal wars and so on.

    I don't see what any of the examples you give have to do with social conservatism. If you can find examples of Labour embracing [culturally] conservative values I would be interested in seeing them.

    My own view of New Labour is of a highly collectivist, controlling, illiberal, authoritarian, statist party, with their, seemingly never ending, assault on our freedoms as their own embodiment of social conservatism.

    I'm with you up until "as their own embodiment of social conservatism". I don't see how assaulting long-held freedoms is in any way conservative. I think the "modern thinking" "post-liberal consensus" is quite a radical change (for the worst).

    We could get overly dramatic and do the whole Orwelain, police/surveillance state thing, but even without going down that route it's not controversial to say that New Labour have constructed the most authoritarian state since Word War II.

    Authoritarianism != conservatism, however much we may dislike both.

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