Slllooowww

Horatio (left) working...

Reading is work. Would you like to know the different approaches Grotius and Rousseau had towards the introduction of property - with specific emphasis on their particular interpretations of natural law?

I'm all ears.

me too
(bloody Oxford Students)

See spot run...
...Run spot run...

I'm all ears.

Really? Okay (really quickly and simply).

Grotius believed that natural law, being a set of rules premised on reason, and aimed towards self-preservation and natural sociability (oikeiosis) can be expanded through the creation of civil laws (that do not go against man's natural rights). That is, rationally understood natural law aimed at natural sociability is the "fountain of all rights" - and these rights can be understood as civil laws (therefore civil law can be understood as a subset of natural law - not to be confused with divine law).

This is what legitimized property in Grotius' case. Although property is not natural to man (everything was originally given to us in common), through the expansion of civil laws in society, property was established (although, interestingly, he does leave room for the origin of property to being found in force rather than agreement).

Rousseau, on the other hand, was a critic of the rational ability of man and therefore did not accept Grotius' natural law theory. He did accept that there is a type of oikeiosis in natural man however: a love of self and, while not natural sociability, a hatred of seeing other humans suffer. These are the natural, and arational (rather than irrational) inclinations of natural man. Therefore, Rousseau's natural law could be understood in moral rather than legalistic terms. It is what he, often, calls "heart."

What's more, unlike Grotius, Rousseau does not trust reason as a faculty from which one can expand upon these basic elements. Rationality, rather than being an ultimate good, is often an ability to overcome these natural inclinations (to paraphrase: it is reason that, when one witnesses another man being mugged, allows one to, rather than aid the victim, think to oneself: "there but for the grace of God go I").

So is it possible to find a basis for property (as we understand it today) in this conception of natural law? No. Instead, Rousseau argues:

THE first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society.
That is, civil law did not legitimize property, property was the cause of civil law - civil law was created to protect (legitimize) the property of the property holder. It was a solution which was rationally discovered by the "haves" to protect themselves from the "have-nots." It was a step in the corruption of man, and the path away from natural right, and the cause of inequality.

Interesting. For some reason I'm reminded of the old joke;

"Why do anarchists drink herbal tea? Because proper tea is theft!"

Interesting. For some reason I'm reminded of the old joke;

"Why do anarchists drink herbal tea? Because proper tea is theft!"

Classic.

So, in a nutshell... Finders, keepers... Meh...

Yeah, the forum has been crazy slow on Sunday afternoon and then today between 1pm and 2:25pm (according to the thousands of emails I received on the matter).

Unfortunately I've missed both occasions, today because I wasn't online until a short while ago.

What the hosting company need when this happens is some pointers on what is happening.

If any of you are technical in any way, could you please perform both a traceroute ("tracert http://www.londonfgss.com" on windows) and a rolling ping ("ping -t http://www.londonfgss.com" on windows) and then email that to me ( david @ londonfgss.com ) so that I can collate it all and supply it to the hosting company support people.

Cheers

Yeah, the forum has been crazy slow on Sunday afternoon and then today between 1pm and 2:25pm (according to the thousands of emails I received on the matter).

Unfortunately I've missed both occasions, today because I wasn't online until a short while ago.

What the hosting company need when this happens is some pointers on what is happening.

If any of you are technical in any way, could you please perform both a traceroute ("tracert http://www.londonfgss.com" on windows) and a rolling ping ("ping -t http://www.londonfgss.com" on windows) and then email that to me ( david @ londonfgss.com ) so that I can collate it all and supply it to the hosting company support people.

Cheers

Okay.... But what about the introduction of property? Is there a traceroute for that?