"Bicycles will be removed" - legal?

Hi,

Just a trivia question. I've tried searching here and on other sites and encountered ambiguity.

Do people who post signs that threaten removal of locked bikes from railings actually have a right to confiscate property?

I know councils have powers to remove bikes which are obstructions and the police can do pretty much anything under prevention of terrorism. There are lots of signs around that look like they've been stuck there by a building owner just looking to keep their property looking sharp, but what legal basis do they have to make off with someone's bike?

Good question. Whenever I see these signs I want to grafitto 'WHY?' on there.

Some of them are really chancing it.

Everything on Carnaby St has a sign on it. There are loads of shops and no parking. On Saturday and evenings it's pretty busy, but during the week I would prefer to park outside Sacred and be able to see my bike.

I often wonder about removing the sign. That's criminal damage I guess. But if they're not legal in the first place, no need!

Legal is not the whole story as well. If some quasi-non-legal process will swallow your bike for months, best to walk 30 seconds further.

like those wheel clampers
not officially legal

I've wondered about those signs as well as I had my lock cut on kingly st. bike was locked upto those railings opp two floor bar and in front of some chi chi club, when I locked up no sign, when I returned, bike gone and sign up. Seems owner hates bikes locking up there, only got bike back as man who'd angle grinded the lock told me which lock up it was in.

personally feel most of the people round there are being cheeky with their signage as proper bike railings are few and far between in town..

Clarification on the legal issues would be appreciated, as I was planning on locking my bike up in exactly the same place that the OP mentioned, all day.

Yeah. I fully respect a person's right to hate bikes as long as they restrain themselves to what is legally permissible.

If you lock to a railing, are you on public ground (the highway) or private ground (assuming the railing is part of the building)?

We had these signs attached to the railings outside our work building until they "went missing".
That was two years ago and they haven't been replaced.

I was wondering about writing to the LCC to see if they could shed any light. Thought I would ask the savvy people of LFGSS first.

this is a fricking good topic and two very good questions.

are the railings of a given building public or private property?
does putting a sign up legally entitle you to carry out the threat seeing as the bike is someone else's property ?

I think writing "oh fuck off" on the signs would be a good move. precious twerps.

If the railings are private, then the owner does have certain H&S obligations imposed on them, but then they should mention that on the sign if that want understanding and therefore compliance.

Otherwise, FUCK TEH MAN!

The signs never seem to say anything telling like "By order of Such and Such under regulation blah de blah."

I reckon you could put a sign on your bike to the effect:

IF THIS BIKE IS REMOVED FROM THIS RAILING I WILL PERSONALLY COME DOWN HERE AND KILL YOU IN THE EYES, MR FATSO SECURITY TWERP.

Perhaps we should lock a beater up on one of these railings and then see what happens legaly after that?

even better would be a sign attatched to the bike, saying 'this bike is being left here as a experiment into the legality of removing property which does not belong to the remover, feel free to take part, we are watching you!' and see if anyone wants to go ahead. I think they might not bother..

I reckon you could put a sign on your bike to the effect:

IF THIS BIKE IS REMOVED FROM THIS RAILING I WILL PERSONALLY COME DOWN HERE AND KILL YOU IN THE EYES, MR FATSO SECURITY TWERP.

I like this.

They would most likely raise the defence of volenti in relation to your claim for trespass to goods.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volenti_non_fit_injuria[/ame]

Essentially, you knew the risks (that your bike would be removed) and you consented to that risk by leaving your bike there anyway.

I just had a word with our receptionist at work about the signs outside the front of our buildings. And she said that her boss had them attached to the railings as a deterant. And she has never been told of any procedure for the removal of bikes from the railings outside our building.

I think they are empty threats even if they are on brass plaques.

I like this.

I reckon the word 'twerp' ought to be revived.

As regards "is it public property", if you park a motorcycle or car on a piece of land that is privately owned, but connected to the public footway (e.g. those cellar lights) you are still considered to be on the public footway, and can be ticketed for illegal parking.

I reckon, therefore, that as long as it's chained to the outside of any railings, even if it is on a private bit of concrete, you might have a defence that it's on public property.

@Allthegearnoidea: That's very interesting, thanks.

I'm still stuck as to the private/public property question though. Just because I warned you doesn't make it legal if I all but steal your bike.

i sometimes make a point of locking up to railings that say rude things like "bikes locked up here will be removed and disposed of" (if i'm only going to leave it for a few minutes) but i never lock up to places with polite signs that say "please don't leave your bike here" or similar

they also appear to have done it on Pall Mall.

there is a concept in english law called distress damage feasant - the extent to which this would apply to bikes chained to private railings (or other private property) is as far as I can tell unknown and presumably has not been tested in the courts.
if it helps, the idea is as follows:

if you dump your bike on my land you are trespassing on my property (unlawful - nb in the civil context). various remedies are available to me. I can sue you for trespass to property in the hope of recovering damages from you proportionate to the harm your trespass has caused (which is going to be a lengthy, costly and generally annoying process) - or i can simply detain the offending bike until such damages as have been caused are paid to me by you.

so far so good, although it should be noted that in order to rely on this remedy (and not be liable in turn for taking the bike) I would have to be able to show that some damage was caused (this doesnt have to be physical damage, but has to amount to more than the distress of the bike's presence alone) - exactly what would be acceptable damage in this context is unclear as far as i can tell...

furthermore, removing and detaining the bike in most cases would involve breaking whatever lock was in place - again, its unclear whether the self help remedy outlined above would allow someone to do this lawfully.

This issue has been most considered in the context of car clamping and i think its likely that if the issue re bikes did go before the courts, it would be considered analogous or close to that, although not without difficulty.
cars can be lawfully clamped and released after payment when trespassing on private property, but subject to various restrictions (notices, regulation of operators etc) (if interested see the case of Arthur v Anker) none of this i think applies to bikes however, and doesnt envisage bike specific issues such as damage to locks for example.

all i can reasonably say is that if someone has gone to the trouble of putting up a threatening sign, they might care about it enough to break your lock and take your bike / and it would then be for you to take action to get it back and recover any damages for the lock. given that the law is uncertain, it would unlikly be a straighforward process, and litigation of any sort is inevitably costly, worrysome and inherently risky. for those reasons alone, and perhaps thinking simpy that you would not care for a random to chain their property to yours and bugger off, it might be best to avoid locking your bike to private property.

the situation might well differ where you lock your bike to public property as the rules applying to local authorities are perhaps different.

outside st thomas's hospital - no bike racks to be seen anywhere in the vicinity of the A&E entrance, and shit loads of bikes locked to every railing available with signs on saying not to....

because if you just found out your friend was in an accident, you are really going to want to walk all the way to the back end of the building to find somewhere to put it where it won't get taken away right? doh.