Royce vs Phil Wood

won't be at the drinks, i'm supposed to be revising at the moment...
to be honest, i'm no engineer, i've based all of my wheelbuilding opinions on those around me (other mechanics) and what i've seen happen to wheels in races/accidents/general riding, as well as what i see as common sense.
i'm also generally biased against radial lacing (on the rear) as i've seen a few hubs completely ruined by it. while he may be right about the evening out of the tension on a dished wheel, i
(a) don't really see that as a good thing, since you need that higher tension because of the higher torsional stresses placed on that side, and
(b) just evening out the tension, even if one grants that it is necessary, doesn't get rid of the issues that arise from pulling on the flange at it's weakest point.
as far as the side of the flange that the spoke heads go, i'll try to explain better. putting the heads on the insideputs the elbows on the outside. they end up having to bend more (at a more acute angle), thereby putting more stress on the joint, which is where most spoek snap anyway (when someone comes into the shop with broken spokes, they are usually rear, drive, head-inside spokes. also, by placing the elbows on the outside, there is more exposed material, which can be badly 'eaten' at if the chain drops, again, exposing the spokes to more potential damage than is necessary.
also, (back to radial) i see the point he's making about the tension of the opposing spoke sides, but i just don't agree that the benfits outweigh the negatives. i think that what i said above, in regard to this, and what you said after (he said, whatever) are addressing two different issues in the stresses that wheels undergo.
i'll try to think of a better way of outlining/verblising my argument... but for now, as with every internet argument, we shall have to agree to disagree. :)

wouldn't the High/Lo hub in question change things a bit as well?

(has built 3 wheels, knows next to nothing about them)

i think that what i said above, in regard to this, and what you said after (he said, whatever) are addressing two different issues in the stresses that wheels undergo.

Yep. Agreed I feel that I am arguing about which side to but a radial pattern and your arguing about putting a radial pattern in at all. I am no big fan of radial lacing either just it's away to get rid of the tension difference and if your going to be doing half radial, do it to improve the situation. I don't think I would personally run half radial. but if I was to I'd do it radial drive side. As you say we'll have to agree to disagree, not all things are black and wight and I think this is one of them.

I get your point about inside / outside flange radial lacing now well explained.

His best solution to the tension difference is further down where he goes for 2 cross non drive side and crows foot drive side. This minimises the radial part, still gives power transfer and evens out the tension. I know Velocity boy has been running full crows foot pattern on his wheels for a year now and is loving it from what I can remember. I plan on trying this pattern on a mtb wheel I hope to be building up when I can be arsed.

Peace out.

object is it over under, under over, or over, under, under?? :p

cheers hassanr and tommy, your advice and thoughts are gratefully received. I need to check out your crow's foot/2x idea tommy... very innersting. Is that crow's foot thing all twisty spokey?

This is crows foot, the twisted is snow flake I think. If in doubt just go good old 3 cross both sides, it's works for years on 99.9% of bikes it must be alright;)

Not read it but I have heard form others this is a good book The Bicycle Wheel: Jobst Brandt, Sherry Sheffield: Amazon.co.uk: Books

Phil Wood (just) get my vote unless I am feeling particularly jingoistic. Royce good, but look at the number of really old Phil Woods still knocking around. Royce seem a bit harder to get hold of if something goes wrong. Phil Wood probably just edge it.

no one gave a fuck in may 2008 and they still don't

Wow. People start new threads on covered topics, and they get flamed. They resurrect old threads, and they get flamed.

Phil Wood (just) get my vote unless I am feeling particularly jingoistic. Royce good, but look at the number of really old Phil Woods still knocking around. Royce seem a bit harder to get hold of if something goes wrong. Phil Wood probably just edge it.
That's probably the biggest piece of crap ever, one is based in england and so you are likely to have much less problems in my opinion with them, especially as they are a smaller company.

Never had Phil Wood Hubs but I've got a pair of Royce Hubs on my road bike. I've had some problems with the front hub and had to loctite the bearings in as the tolerances were a bit out, (Cliffs recommendation...) it's all good now but for that kind of money I expected perfection and would have sent it back if I'd not made it up into a wheel...

Rear hub's amazing though and it's good to have something on my bike that's made in the U.K.