How to make the roads safer?

indeed and the rest of the country too.

seems ironic that this is a cycling community and we are slagging off the cyclists, but yesterday nearly started a thread myself about the amount of fair weather cyclists around at mo.
it makes us look bad when there are these people veering all over the place, shit control skills and piss poor bike handling.

so, more level 3 training-Londoners are lucky lots of boroughs offer it.
(and even level 2 for many 'returning cyclists') point it to people theres all sorts of shizzle promotions like 'women on wheels' some of it free.
also massive public awareness campaign for us, i.e pointing out wtf ASLS are supposed to do, its fair to say that a huge proportion of drivers passed their tests before they were even introduced. The ASL by the way is now accepted practice in London, youre lucky,many of the rest of the countrys local authorities still have engineers, highways staff who need persauding that cyclists are even to be acknowledged.
Rest assured there are people hassling staff who make decisions on infrastructure, routes, training, quality provision, home zones.

i was going to say that as cyclists we should encourage a more didactic community. It would be interesting to literally organize some classes. could be a fundraiser. once a month. I bet it would pack out.

Interesting discussion.

Training has to be the key, both for cyclists and motorists. The issue is how to get people to take it up? My take on it is that it has to be all carrot and no stick, because sticks are uneforceable and cause resentment!

I'm a motorist as well as a cyclist. I'm a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists and passed my Advanced Driving Test last year. One of the best and most enlightening things I've done, and without a doubt it's made me a better motorist and cyclist, I highly recommend it to any driver out there! And without a doubt, if more people went through this process, there'd be far, far, fewer accidents on the road.

Anyway, bringing this back to the current discussion, there are some interesting points to note.

The IAM is a charity and run by vounteers. Members (suitably trained) provide training to new members and guide them through the test process. While not without flaws, it dramatically reduces the cost of training. Nothing like this exists for cyclists; it's something to which I'd personally be willing to dedicate a couple of hours of my week, and I'm sure other cyclists would too. Actually, this is something LFGSS could quite easily do - it's a comunity activity and it's easy to set up some kind of scheme in a community context. It's about people being bothered and doing something positive!

Speaking of cost/carrots, one of the things that surprised me was that, despite the low training cost, there's actually very little incentive for drivers to do any form of advanced training. Yet more highly trained drivers is a good thing! The negative incentives are: it takes a fair bit of time and commitment to pass the test (i.e. it's not easy!); there are no financial rewards (you barely get any insurance discount and this is outweighed by membership fees). My motivation for doing it was personal - I want to protect my arse, and those of others! But, I feel if more drivers are going to do this, there actually needs to be a stronger incentive in place. Like cash, given by the government, or reduction in road tax, or whatever. Otherwise people just won't do it. As cyclists, we should be pushing the government to promote driver training, and the only way IMHO to do this is big fat (cash) carrots.

Courant

PS There's a book, Cyclecraft, which is modeled on the police driver training book Roadcraft. I haven't read it but mean to. It's meant to be good.

yeah, thats the bible really, by John Franklin for those that havent come across it.
imo needs an update if only I had time to write it! theres lots of techniques that experienced and especially urban riders now use habitually that could be included such as shadowing vehicles. anyway.

Sometimes councils will pay for your £400 training, thats how I got it done by Luton by CTUK in 2005, at the time was doing 4 part time jobs, so scratching a living in biking because I decided it was time to stop mucking about in jobs I hated.
also have a full drivers license too and have done bus training, so interesting to read ^

For other poster Greenwich council may have just been off track at the time?
there are people out there (way more in London) pushing training for free, Im sorry not to be able to post linksbut its the remit of many Councils to do it, probably just take some searching.

As to lfgss training, as I said earlier there will be enough readers here that could easily do it but theres no incentive/need as a forum to organise it.

Suffice to say you can make a living riding bikes, and helping others who want to ride bikes well.

Sometimes councils will pay for your £400 training, thats how I got it done by Luton by CTUK in 2005, at the time was doing 4 part time jobs, so scratching a living in biking because I decided it was time to stop mucking about in jobs I hated.

Interesting

For other poster Greenwich council may have just been off track at the time?
there are people out there (way more in London) pushing training for free, Im sorry not to be able to post linksbut its the remit of many Councils to do it, probably just take some searching.

Greenwich is a bit shit on cycling IMO. Compared to Hackney or Southwark it is pretty apathetic, which is strange considering it is a perfect Bourgh for encouraging cycling as the transport links are poor and traffic is so bad that they even tried introduce a congestion charge but was knocked back due to local opposition.

Oh great. Guess where I live..? ^^^^

PS There's a book, Cyclecraft.

you have invoked the spirit of C+ and will be excommunicated from the church

A good way of making the roads safer would be to confiscate the large green motorbike of the twat who almost knocked myself and another cyclist off this morning on Jamaica road.

When I asked him if he would like me to do to him in my car what he had just done to us on his motorbike he said "Yes! Is fine, I cope!" So, next time I see you sunshine lets see if that's true.

There's a book, Cyclecraft, which is modeled on the police driver training book Roadcraft. I haven't read it but mean to. It's meant to be good.

As above, it is probably due a minor update, but it is excellent. I bought it, not really expecting to get anything from it, and was very pleasantly surprised. I've since lent it to a work colleague who is using it to teach his 10 year old daughter to ride her bike on the road, which is nice.

there are people out there (way more in London) pushing training for free, Im sorry not to be able to post linksbut its the remit of many Councils to do it, probably just take some searching.

As to lfgss training, as I said earlier there will be enough readers here that could easily do it but theres no incentive/need as a forum to organise it.

The problem is:

a) Council training is un-cool.
b) Council training (AFAIK - feel free to correct me) is targetted at newbie riders with the aim of making them safe on the roads.

cf. The Driving Test and Advanced Driver Training. When you pass your driving test, they basically teach you the mechanics and techniques of driving, and that's about it. Advanced driver training is way different - it's far more about the psychology of driving, rather than the mechanics (it's assumed you're a competent driver already - it's certainly not targetted at people, say, who have just passed the test, like Pass Plus).

And so with cycling, there are lots of people out here who wouldn't dream of taking a council course because, "I can already ride a bike across London", and coolness reasons, yet who would almost certainly benefit from training in more advanced skills (e.g. hazard perception, road positioning, correct use or otherwise of cycle lanes, etc.). The CTC, bless them, also do a lot for road safety but, again, have a (partly justfiably!) "beardy" image.

There's a real gap for a switched-on network of mentors.

I simply cannot believe some of the posts on here !

Motorists should have at least 3 mirrors, rear view, offside and inside, The latter is used before making any left turns.

Hence ; Mirror, signal, manouvre....

The training does not just lie with cyclists, motorists generally dont use their mirrors enough, not only that one very simply thing.... ' expect the un-expected '

WVM; when I am doing a right turn in my car or on my bike, and there is stationary traffic, i always proceed with caution, and look down the left cycle lane, before crossing it..... its called ' Thinking ' !

As someone who also comes from an appathetic borough (well i only contacted them three times, with no reponse. but I've also since moved) I think a LFGSS bike training scheme is a great idea.

I'd be up for being trained and training.

Nick-nack, cars only officially need two if I remeber correctly (as long as one is the farside one)... and I don't think people are saying car's aren't a problem, but the fact is they do have a certain amount of training whilst most cyclists don't.

Also I think a lot of people are talking from a central london perspective where the drivers are mostly proffesional and cyclists are mostly dangerous, as opposed to suburban (as someone mentioned above) where it's the other way round!

I don't know if it would be forcing it onto people too much....

But could cycle training be linked into the government cycle to work scheme, I guess a lot of people just starting out to cycle get a bike through one of these schemes. So, if people were put on a basic training course before they received their voucher, it might help?

(although I have no idea how many bikes are sold through these schemes, but they do seem to be increasing in popularity)

+1 the financial incentive, I like this.

Mount a sharp blade/spike in the centre of car steering wheels pointing straight towards the driver, bet the fuckers might drive a little more carefully with that kind of incentive not to hit things.....

I've been saying this for years, the psychological angle. With all of the safety measures being put into cars like, ABS, air bags, anti lock brakes etc drivers instead of driving in a safer fashion take more risks and liberties. That spike would fix a lot.

I think it is too easy for vehicles to encroach on the ASL. I mean they are approx 8ft or something, so I think motorists not really think it's a big deal to park half way into it and when was the last time anyone saw a motorist pulled up by the fuzz for doing it? I think they should be much bigger, maybe two car lengths for big junctions, and should be monitored by cameras (why not? everything else is!)

I would be really interested to know how many people on the forum have taken cycle training.

Problem here is the police have to see you do it in a negligent fashion i.e. if you had more than enough time to stop adequately and still went over the ASL then they could do you.

I've recently become a cycle training instructor.

yes me too, would love to see what i'm doing wrong ?

re the mirrors, not sure need to look into.... I know you need to use all mirrors when doing a driving test.... or I did back in 1992....

I think a LFGSS bike training scheme is a great idea.

the members of this forum are probably more likely to commit acts of randomness, jump red lights and cycle on the pavement than any other london based cycling demographic. I can't see a voluntary training scheme ever changing that.

the members of this forum are probably more likely to commit acts of randomness, jump red lights and cycle on the pavement than any other london based cycling demographic. I can't see a voluntary training scheme ever changing that.

precisely ^

at the same time comments like this from dj:-
"Last night a van pulled out on me on my way home. Another cyclist asked me how I stopped so quickly, to avoid being hit. In fact I was already aware the driver had not seen me so had started to slow down already, the driver did not make eye contact when I looked at him." prove how advanced most readers here on a bike.

Mentoring can be done informally, by members for people that they like, perhaps work mates, improving riders friends and family. Read cyclecraft cover to cover.

Until the time workplaces get Bike it officers (or some sort of role whatever its called), people who will go in get staff trained, talk about cycling to bosses, source bike parking, sort showers and facilities in offices etc etc, people should ride fast, ride well, (and be a good example to children and nice to old ladies and dogs).

the members of this forum are probably more likely to commit acts of randomness, jump red lights and cycle on the pavement than any other london based cycling demographic. I can't see a voluntary training scheme ever changing that.

I was going to make a joke about the training being equal parts cycle awreness and skidding practice :-)

I understand the arguements about RLJ'ing and other acts of randomness (tm)! (I don't do it because it annoys people and I got tired of having to excuse myself as a cyclist because I RLJ'd... also I don't need to) but I'm sure most people could teach me something!

WVM; when I am doing a right turn in my car or on my bike, and there is stationary traffic, i always proceed with caution, and look down the left cycle lane, before crossing it..... its called ' Thinking ' !

My post was to highlight the riding style of the cyclists tearing up the inside of a stationary van (mine) and not the car drivers that were turning right. In both examples I gave the cars managed to stop suggesting they were 'proceeding with caution'. It's called 'Riding with a deathwish' ;-)

no more land mines.

^
yeh Khor..... apart from the car generally coming off worse ! :)

Problem here is the police have to see you do it in a negligent fashion i.e. if you had more than enough time to stop adequately and still went over the ASL then they could do you.

I have never understood why the asl isn't treated like the yellow hatching on junctions. i.e. if you're in a car, you don't enter it until you can see that you can leave it. It would mean that it could actually be enforced (assuming the po p can be arsed. which I doubt they can.)

I have never understood why the asl isn't treated like the yellow hatching on junctions. i.e. if you're in a car, you don't enter it until you can see that you can leave it.

it absolutely* is *though.

drivers still sit in box junctions like twats, the only difference is that when the other lanes of traffic want to come through their right of way they get arsey and hoot and swear and threaten the encroacher with death.

some silly cyclist making a comment doesn't bother them.

I've said this before; the standard of driving, both technically and legally, in this city is abominable in the extreme. I am surprised there are not even more "accidents" than there already are.

Yes, some cyclists are terrible, and I assume they are the same type of person who drives a car badly and dangerously, but if the danger of traffic and it's associated road restrictions was removed from the equation, would they still feel the need to ride in such a way?

Get rid of all road markings. Keep 'em on their toes.

Get rid of all road markings. Keep 'em on their toes.

I remember this being done somewhere and it did make people slow down and drive more carefully.

The 'Bikeways' in Vancouver are the business. Roads where bicycles have the right of way and cars arent bothered to use? Yes please

see cyclinginstructor.com for instructor training course info, bursaries available,
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