Student saddle project...

I took the survey. I have to say, it's very, very ugly.

Also being integrated/fixed to the seatpost - is that good? Seeing as seatposts come in different sizes and all, what if I want to swap it from one bike to another?

Good for you for being original, but I just don't like it - mainly from an aesthetics point of view since I've never ridden it...

I think its interesting

Q1: How do you feel about the design?

(above) though not sure about strength of whatever plasticy stuff the frame is made out of

Q2: How aesthetically pleasing would you say that this saddle is on a scale of 1-10?
4

Q3: Would you say that this saddle would be easier or harder than a normal saddle/seatpost to set up?

normal saddles don't really need setting up that much... but this (although it looks a little busy) doesn't look like it would be too hard to tweak or whatever

Q4: If you saw the saddle for sale, would you consider buying it? (I won’t hold you to the answer to this one!)
nah. free stuff ftw

Q5: How would you improve the design?
make sure thighs wouldn't chafe i.e. narrower frame
no real angle customisation?...

Q6: Does the easy removal of the saddle membrane to deter theft/keep saddle dry make the saddle more or less convenient to use?
probably easier if leather is your steez

Q7: Do you feel that the product attracts you to touch it?
meh, i wanna jump on it

Q8: In which colour would you prefer the seatpost/saddle frame?

• Anodised purple aluminium, son
  
  

Q9: Again, which colours/materials of membrane (the suspended bit you sit on)** would you choose?**
raw bloody hide innit
that or thick black synthetic suede

The frame weighs (ahem) quite a lot according to *Solidworks 2008 *but the complete saddle/post unit is comparable to a brooks saddle with an alloy seatpost.

The membrane is attached by the catch mecahnism which is illustrated in the (not very good) sequence I attached with the initial post. Having tested a working (think ugly) prototype it does seem to work, even with inferior, untreated leather of half the desired thickness.

I think it's totally do-able, but I'd also agree that it would certainly not be suitable for use on a BMX...

the thing is, brooks saddles are affixed to the structure with rivets. anything less and you might, after some usage, tear the leather. the catch mechanism must be extremely strong.

Also being integrated/fixed to the seatpost - is that good? Seeing as seatposts come in different sizes and all, what if I want to swap it from one bike to another?

Ah, the old 'integrated seatpost or not' chestnut.

You can use shims...

the thing is, brooks saddles are affixed to the structure with rivets. anything less and you might, after some usage, tear the leather. the catch mechanism must be extremely strong.

Trying to redeem yourself after the brooks gaffe? ;)

I think if anything will go it would be the mecanism itself. Agreed, this does have to be very strong. I don't think the leather tearing is likely though... unless the mechanism is attached to the leather in a questionable way...

I think everyone needs to understand this is a prototype, so let's not give bavski too much of a hard time. he's delivered a questionnaire, responded to it by coming up with this design, and is now asking for constructive feedback.**

Q1: How do you feel about the design?**
Interesting design, but would be quite difficult to match up to a bike aesthetically. As mentioned in another post, it would probably suit to a folding commuter bike best.

Q2: How aesthetically pleasing would you say that this saddle is on a scale of 1-10?
Ugly 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 5 – 6 – 7 – 8 – 9 – 10 Pretty

Q3: Would you say that this saddle would be easier or harder than a normal saddle/seatpost to set up?
It would be more difficult as there are more components that need adjusting. Also, these adjustments may need to be amended if/when the leather breaks in.

Q4: If you saw the saddle for sale, would you consider buying it? (I won’t hold you to the answer to this one!)
No. I've spent ages trying to find a saddle that fits my rather large arse, so will stick with those instead.

Q5: How would you improve the design?
A much stronger top layer (as you mentioned), and if possible, reduce the size of the frame. The pin connected to the top membrane, will need a very high size:strength ratio because of the tension that will be exerted on it.

Q6: Does the easy removal of the saddle membrane to deter theft/keep saddle dry make the saddle more or less convenient to use?
I think it's easier to cover a saddle than to take it with you if it rains. If the covers are replaceable and able to be purchased separately the frame for the membrane would be quite desirable removing the membrane would not really act as a theft deterrent.

Q7: Do you feel that the product attracts you to touch it?
Do I have to touch it? I would, but i don't know why i should.

Q8: In which colour would you prefer the seatpost/saddle frame?
I'd like to have the choice depending on my bike. But if i had to choose one, it'd be black.

Q9: Again, which colours/materials of membrane (the suspended bit you sit on)** would you choose?**
Same answer as above. And perhaps that is where your product may be unique in the market? Complete customization. But if i had to choose one, it'd be recycled seatbelts.

• Black leather
  
• White leather
  
• Tanned leather
  
• Leather with tweed lining
  
• Recycled seatbelts (black)
  
  

hope that helps.

Ah, the old 'integrated seatpost or not' chestnut.

You can use shims...

Yes, but I would not really want to. I would perhaps shim handlebars, or a front brake lever to fit on said bars (although normally it's the negative shim that is needed - file the thing). Don't really like the idea of shimming the seatpost though, seems a bit messy. Plus if we are talking ease of use then...

how easily can it get damaged if it got caught says, on a lamp post?

^depends which bit you are talking about.
If you mean the tweedy-looking membrane, snagging it on sharp edges would ruin how it looks but it would still be able to support the rider's weight, due to the support material still being leather or similar. That said, if the cover looked shit you would want to replace it, really.

Brooks-y leather membranes should be able to stand up to that sort of torment. I haven't tested the seatbelt one yet, but will let you know if and when...

A few things I've thought of...

Intergrated seatpost is possibly the worst idea in the world, not only do you limit how many bikes can have your saddle, there's also zero adjustability. Normal saddles have a good few inches of back and forth movement.

Not to mention that someone with a 70 degree seatube is going to be leaning backwards, and someone with a 78 degree seatube is going to be leaning forwards.

Also, you've taken the worst part of a brooks saddle - the design. People mainly buy Brookses for the looks and the prestige of the brand, yours has neither. 99.9999% of cyclist don't use a sprung saddle, if they were necessary we'd all be riding one, but apart from brooks their popularity died out decades ago.

Saying that I think there's something to it, if you could make it very light, with normal rails (for adjustability) and no seatpost, it might just work.

constructive criticism

How do you generate the tension required for the removable membrane to support body weight - the brooks works because it is machine tensioned and a permanent fixture.

I can't see from your model a usable ratchet system for creating the required tension,

the method that is shown would require way too much force, a lever system is going to be inoperable for most people

i do like the concept of the interchangeable seat material, but the frame and post need some serious re-design

i like the fact that you're trying to redesign the seat post but you've got a long way to go. why so much plastic needed? given that most seats are moving towards being tiny things these days...http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/selle-italia-cflow-med.jpg

Also, you've taken the worst part of a brooks saddle - the design. People mainly buy Brookses for the looks and the prestige of the brand, yours has neither. 99.9999% of cyclist don't use a sprung saddle, if they were necessary we'd all be riding one, but apart from brooks their popularity died out decades ago.

I think you're making a pretty big assumption there. Sure, Brooks has a lot of heritage, but the fact that people still buy Brooks saddles after over a century of using very similar designs is a testament to the strength of the original design concept. Personally I think that people choose to use brooks saddles for many reasons, including:

• Comfort of the saddle
  
• Durability
  
• The Brooks brand image.
  
  

And about integrated saddle/seatposts being a bad idea: I agree that it might be necessary to include different versions with different seatpost angles.

i like the fact that you're trying to redesign the seat post but you've got a long way to go. why so much plastic needed? given that most seats are moving towards being tiny things these days...http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/selle-italia-cflow-med.jpg

Yeah I know that most saddles are becoming tiny, and I sort of wanted to make a design statement contrary to that particular trend: There are alternatives, and not everyone wants a tiny saddle.

My research showed that most people don't consider saddle aerodynamics an important issue, that comfort is the most important attribute of a saddle, and that overall people thought that strength was a more important issue than weight.

Although the design seems a bit eccentric, that was kind of the idea.

constructive criticism

How do you generate the tension required for the removable membrane to support body weight - the brooks works because it is machine tensioned and a permanent fixture.

I can't see from your model a usable ratchet system for creating the required tension,

the method that is shown would require way too much force, a lever system is going to be inoperable for most people

That's some good criticism. Much better than some of the "worst idea ever" comments i've got so far.

Having tested the lever system myself, I am confident that the mechanism would work... The leather membranes would need to be made from 4-5mm thick cowhide, then soaked, pressed and kiln-dried in a similar way to the Brooks saddles.

I think my main criticisms of my own design are:

• The release mechanism will probably need beefing up a bit.
  
• The frame needs to go on a diet. During FEA I used a total load of 240kg, which led to the frame looking like it does. If I reduced this to 120kg overall it could look a lot more slender...
  
  

Overall I'm pretty happy with it for a student project. It's our job to have slightly more creative (ahem) ideas - if I had just designed a 'normal' saddle my report would have been about 2 paragraphs long and I would have died of boredom shortly after Christmas.

Has the saddle been road tested then?

I do think the integrated seatpost is still the worst idea in the world. But I think that's the only real problem with it, there is already a standard fitting for saddle rails for you to use, but you chose to bypass that and limit the consumer's choices. Not only will you have to have different angles, you'll also have to have different seatpost thicknesses.

Sorry if I sound unconstructive, I find the idea very interesting.

Nice concept.

Could you produce a couple of different frames for bum width?
ie.
Narrow - medium - Hippy

...and then couple these with different thickness leather tops to give the right... erm give for a given weight.
ie.

Light - medium - Hippy

The Prologo saddles with interchangable tops seem to be popular, as people can change colour or replace the shabby looking part of an old saddle without having to buy a whole new one. They also have different levels of cooling (I think they have different thicknesses too). Plus the spesh, fizic, san-marco etc sizing systems certainly make it easier to buy saddles online. Sounds like your system could have the best of both. Although at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding (or in this case gooch).

clicks survey link

PS. Sorry Hippy (big small furry smiley)

Just a thought but......

If say, you need jump off a curb or something and the leather snaps...would'nt that hurt :(

Not only will you have to have different angles, you'll also have to have different seatpost thicknesses.

Good point!

The fore aft positioning is pretty crucial for some too. Plus the whole longseat post for compact frames, short for horizontal tt frames thing.

i like this and the machanism for attaching the membrane is good, it would be better if it dident have the intergrated seat post but just the rails for attaching a normal seat post, have you made any prototypes fully out of aluminium?

Just a thought but......

If say, you need jump off a curb or something and the leather snaps...would'nt that hurt :(

er, if that happened, the answer is yes. the key is making the leather tough enough to withstand 'abuse' (that's use in the real world...).

Yeah actually one of the future developments I am explorong is to make a ladies-specific saddle. this one is based upon data on the distances between the ischial tuberosities in men. Ladies' "sit bones" are further apart on average than men's, so the surface of the saddle would need to be wider to support their weight correctly...

i like this and the machanism for attaching the membrane is good, it would be better if it dident have the intergrated seat post but just the rails for attaching a normal seat post, have you made any prototypes fully out of aluminium?

One of the future developments I am proposing in my report is also to develop a standard rail version! Thanks for being so insightful guys: now I can write in my report that you all informed my decisions for future development of the project, rather than just saying I made it all up:)

constructive criticism

How do you generate the tension required for the removable membrane to support body weight - the brooks works because it is machine tensioned and a permanent fixture.

I can't see from your model a usable ratchet system for creating the required tension,

the method that is shown would require way too much force, a lever system is going to be inoperable for most people

like a ratchet system from those swanky shoes (heineken has removed the power of finding out what shoes exactly)