Bastard Midget Spokes

Trying to build up a wheelset this afternoon (it has to be this afternoon) and the spastics at my LBS have sold me spokes that are 2-3 mm too short, according to all the spoke calcs I've used.

I have given up 3/4 of the way through lacing the first wheel, it has taken me ages and a considerable amount of blood, sweat and HTFU. Now I'm going to have to ride over there for the 3rd time today, and get some new spokes. FFS. FFS. FFS! I'm going to poke the guy in the eye, with the threaded end of one of his own inadequate spokes.

spoke calc always 2mm longer. think you'd be fine. if not get longer nipples, cheaper

They are definitely too short, it's just your common or garden 3x but getting the lead spokes to even touch the end of the nipples is a fucking effort. Managed to complete one side but gave up after multiple attempts at the first lead spoke on the other side. "I've never had this problem before..." as they say.

Called up and I'm fine to exchange them (only bought them 1/2 an hour ago after all). Just decided to post that to prevent myself from flipping out when I get there and actually assaulting some poor staff member with a spoke.

What are your rims, hubs and crossing?

What size spokes do you have?

Dale - what do you use to clip the spoke ends ... out of interest

go down to a 2 cross if you are on a three, that should do it

Yep what he said, try 2x?

What are your rims, hubs and crossing?

What size spokes do you have?

Very old Ambrosio Balances, 32 hole (ERD = 594, according to [ame="http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=133302"]this[/ame], the only info I could find) on System Ex hubs with a standard 3 cross pattern. I'm trying to lace with 284mm spokes.

go down to a 2 cross if you are on a three, that should do it

Good call, I'm now torn between trying this and swapping them.

I keep coming up with 286-287mm.

Short, but just.

How far are you threading the initial spokes?

2 cross won't work.

Hippy is going to be very disappointed when he finally gets to this thread!

I keep coming up with 286-287mm.

Short, but just.

How far are you threading the initial spokes?

Cheers Dwayne. I was threading the initial spokes two / three turns. I've measured the spokes and they are definitely 284. Starting to wonder about whether I've got the ERD right (maybe not) whether the nipples could somehow be weird (they're fine) or whether I'm just doing something incredibly stupid (most probable, though I checked Sheldon once the problem surfaced to make sure I wasn't messing up the pattern).

Unlaced the whole thing and the shop has now shut, so I'm just going to have to chill out for a bit, regain equilibrium and relace.

2 cross won't work.

Damn.

Hippy is going to be very disappointed when he finally gets to this thread!

That's pretty much how I'm feeling

Hippy is going to be very disappointed when he finally gets to this thread!

You got that right!

Bloody spoke lengths.... epic thread fail :)

Have you done this before?

i have and going from 3X to 2 fixed it
but it was an old unmarked rim so had to be measured ... also Campag hubs with very fat flanges, this pushed the spokes away from the hub and caused a real ball ache building

Have you done this before?

Yes, done a 3x and a 3forward/3back, no drama.

But I think I've worked it out!! It's to do with the way I put the spokes on, the order of spoke groups (and of course the fact that the spokes are too short).

I lace the spokes with leading spokes running up the inside of the flange, so they don't get caught when the chain comes off during a skid, etc.

I'm careful to be consistent with this on a flip-flop hub, so the first group of spokes I put on are trailing spokes, equivalent to "trailing cassette-side" spokes on a normal wheel. Spokes outside the flange.

While the second group of spokes I put on would be the "trailing non-cassette" side on a normal wheel, in my case they're actually leading spokes on the flop side, so they get spokes inside the flange.

All the spokes outside on the one side, all the spokes inside on the other.

This fucks up my dishing, so when I put on the "leading cassette-side / flip-side" spokes I end up with a wheel almost dished flat, and can't get the last group of spokes on (what would have been "leading non-cassette-side", now trailing on the flop side of the hub. That's why the spokes wouldn't go on, even though they're only 2mm too short.

Have I explained that in a way that makes sense?

Basically if you're using the Sheldon technique to build up a flip-flop hub and you're anal about spokes in/spokes out, you should put on the first group of spokes, then the third, then the second, then the fourth.

I was right... but it turns out that the only way for me to get the third group of spokes on (whatever they are) is to have the wheel dished flat on the side they're going on.

I just need longer fucking spokes.

older ambrosio rims are more like open pro's, so i would of though 290-2mm spoke for 3 cross

288 turned out to be fine and they were cool about swapping them when I arrived first thing this morning, even though they'd had a powercut and had to count them out by torchlight. I feel bad about the spoke-in-the-eye thing now.